Headcovering Article from echotheword.net

Our Journey to Obeying I Corinthians 11
Occasionally, a chronicle of one’s personal, spiritual journey can be beneficial to others. While humbling to tell, it can be encouraging to others to hear of the baby steps fellow Christians make. This paper is a combination of both personal testimony and Scriptural investigation. The topic isn’t even considered worthy of serious study in most Christian circles. Yet this Biblical teaching is found in a New Testament letter which today is both popular and timely. The letter is 1 Corinthians, and the topic is the headship veiling of chapter 11.
Embarrassing as it is to admit, I believe I can safely say I’ve held to almost every possible interpretation. The only consolation to this is the fact that, while ignorant, I was at least honest. It is important to remember to be sympathetic to those who dismiss the headship veiling as unimportant. In today’s Christian circles, this text is almost completely ignored or mishandled.
(1) R. C. Sproul (2) has chided today’s expositors for engaging in eisegesis of the worst kind as regards 1 Corinthians 11:1-16. (R. C. Sproul’s comments are contained in Appendix A.)
In my opinion, the modern Christian is insulated from even beginning to consider this teaching by various erroneous assumptions. For me personally, it was a misunderstanding of the very words of Jesus. Christ stood as a road block to further investigation. The unwarranted assumption was simply this: Jesus’ message stands in opposition to any consideration of externals; especially in regards to clothing issues. A few of those misunderstood statements would include:
1) “Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life…nor about your body, what you
  will put on.” (Matthew 7:25)
  2) “Do not judge according to appearance…” (John 7:24a)
3) “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. (Matthew 23:27)
4) “Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.” (Matthew 23:26)
These verses are used to derail the discussion even before it gets started. In the early days of my Christian walk, I would have simply brushed aside the entire issue with a pious cliché, “Let’s not major on the minors.” Yet, now I believe that such cavalier dismissal of Scripture is wrong for the following reasons:
  1) It is Scripture we are doing away with, not some extra-Biblical writing. (Recall
  2 Timothy 3:16-17: “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for
  doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God
  may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”)
2) Peter and Paul both deal with the externals: of clothing, etc. If they were lead by the
  Holy Spirit to address these matters, are we more “spiritual” now than even the apostles 
  themselves?
  3) Church history shows that Christians for hundreds of years in different lands accepted
  this Scripture as applicable. Can we really assume they misunderstood, and we are so 
  much wiser? 
(1) Professor of Systematic Theology and Apologetics at Reformed Theological Seminary
(2) Knowing Scripture, p. 110, R. C. Sproul, I.V.P.
4) That which we relegate to the “minor” commandments may be more essential than we
  realize. If we could see as the Good Shepherd sees, we might adjust our thinking. 
  (Matthew 5:19; Isaiah 55:8-9)
None of the aforementioned, of course, proves that 1 Corinthians 11:1-16 is to be obeyed literally today, but it does begin to make the way clear to an open-hearted study. Put in the plainest terms – all Scripture is worthy of serious study, is it not? Admittedly, there was a time in our own Christian walk when ANY discussion of externals of this nature would have immediately been branded as “Pharisaical.” Now, while the way may seem clear to begin a serious study, usually another smoke bomb is dropped into the discussion. In verses two and sixteen, two similar words are used (varying according to translation) namely, “tradition” and “custom” (KJV – “ordinances”). Here an unwarranted assumption is made again. I made this assumption for years. The erroneous thought is this: tradition and custom are always in opposition to Jesus Christ’s own teaching. I’ve heard these words pronounced with a snarl in the voice: “Tradition! Ha!” “Custom! Right!” Inferred in this is that Jesus hated tradition (Matthew 15) and hates it still, and that whenever we read the word ‘tradition’ or ‘custom’, it is always man-made and never used positively. This, of course, is not what the New Testament shows. Two examples will be sufficient concerning the word ‘tradition’:
A) “Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.” (2 Thessalonians 2:15) (Gk: #3682 Strong‘s)
B) “But we command you brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us.” (2 Thessalonians 3:6) (Gk: #3682 Strong‘s)
This word pronounced par-ad’-os-is used here in Thessalonians is the same used by our Lord Jesus in Matthew 15. The Greek lexicons define it as: “transmission i.e. (concretely) a precept, ordinance.” (Strong’s, p. 1072); “That which is delivered, the substance of teaching.” (Thayer’s Greek/English Lexicon, p. 481); “What is transmitted in the way of teaching, precept, doctrine.” (Analytical Lexicon, p. 302). Simply put, the word tradition isn’t a bad word, contrary to my earlier belief. It can be used with reference to man’s teaching or God’s – depending on the context. Kittel’s sums it up very well with this comment: “For Paul, Christian teaching is tradition, and he demands that churches should keep to it since salvation depends on it.” (Kittel’s Theological Dictionary, Volume 2, p. 172)
The situation concerning the word “custom” is very similar. We assumed that “custom” was man-made ordinances. Yet, simply put, the Greek word used here means “usage, habit.” (We’ll deal at length with what the actual cultural context was in Corinth a little later.) Suffice it to say, custom isn’t a bad word either, at least in this context. On the matter of custom in general, one short quote is helpful: “All we have for sure is the text on the pages of the Bible! God wrote it for us, to us and preserved it as we have it today. No information external to the text about the presumed cultural influence on the Apostle Paul’s attitude toward women, worship or anything else can be known with certainty. Therefore, it may never be used to negate, deny, or change the plain and direct meaning of the words of the text.” (Reformed Witness Magazine, March 1992) The thorough treatment of the cultural context will come later. It is my belief that modern evangelical Christians have made void the commandment of God concerning the headship veiling in conformity to our customs. It isn’t that the apostle spoke as influenced by his culture but the culture of pseudo-equality twists our minds!
Surely, after all this, the way is clear for a serious look at the text. “But,” we’re told, “this precept (1 Corinthians 11:1-16) is only mentioned once; therefore it must not be all that important. After all, by the mouth of two or three witnesses, every charge must be established, right?” Do we believe that if we can’t find two or three verses on any given subject, then it really doesn’t matter? Two items come to mind as I consider such a claim:
A) Melchizedek – Are things only important when they are mentioned a lot? If 1 Corinthians 11:1-16 isn’t valuable, then neither is Melchizedek. But in Hebrews 7:4 we read: “Now consider how great this man was, to whom even the patriarch Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils.” While he is hardly referenced, he is greater than Abraham! (Hebrews 7:7) *
  B) Baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is only mentioned once in the New Testament. Could this be not important? 
C) The mark of the beast: 666 – Not important? Well, this is mentioned once in Revelation 13! Can we safely disregard the warning in this Scripture? After all, it is mentioned only once. Items may appear to be more important or less important because of the number of citations, but this is not a Scriptural way to make such an evaluation.
It is regularly maintained that the headship teaching was a problem peculiar to Christians in Corinth. This is what I thought for a long time. And for a long time, I had no motivation to look any further. But as I looked again, this theory began to unravel as well. 
The first question is: Did Corinthian women have a problem with their observance (or should I say their non-observance) of the headship veiling? Consider 1 Corinthians 11:2: “Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.” Can we say from this, contrary to verse two, that they didn’t keep the traditions? Nevertheless, Paul does proceed to say immediately following his commendation, “But I would have you know that…” It appears they were obeying, but ignorantly. If the Corinthian women did wear the covering, Paul very well could have been led by the Holy Spirit’s illumination rather than local conditions at Corinth. We do know the letter wasn’t written just to the Corinthian church – see 1 Corinthians 1:2: “To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours.” (See also the custom mentioned in Colossians 4:16 of sharing letters: “Now when this epistle is read among you, see that it is read also in the church of the Laodiceans, and that you likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.”)
Also 1 Corinthians 11:16 uses the phrase “neither do the churches of God”; possibly indicating this teaching wasn’t unique to Corinth. (On this point, the Wycliffe Commentary [Moody Publishing], agrees and adds similar points as well.) Besides all this, Paul himself cites no special Corinthian situation anywhere in his teaching. A portion of the Wycliffe Commentary may be helpful at this point: “It should be noted; however, that each of the reasons given for the wearing of the veil is taken from permanent facts lasting as long as the present earthly economy. Paul did carry his point, for early church history bears witness that in Rome, Antioch and Africa, the custom became the norm.” (Wycliffe Commentary, 1962, Moody Press) We also know the “custom” extended eventually to all Christian communities until quite recently. If this teaching was originally intended to be merely a local response to a unique problem, the entire early church misunderstood! For early drawings show Christian women wearing “…a close fitting headdress while men have their hair short (and also presumably uncovered). Tertullian and Chrysostom testify that these injunctions of Paul prevailed in the churches.” (Vincent’s Word Studies, Volume III,
p. 787)
As you can see, there is a lot of work that needs to be done just to get to the text, but now that we’ve cleared some debris, we can move on to the first real argument which I believe makes any sense. The view maintains that the hair is the covering. Obviously this can’t just be hair since then the men would need to shave their heads. 
* The actual references to Melchizedek include Genesis 14; Psalm 110; and Hebrews 7
What is being proposed is that women ought to have long hair, and this is what Paul intended. This is maintained despite the fact that the entire early church interpreted Paul as teaching a cloth veiling over the hair! (See previous quotes)
We are simply being asked to believe that when the church adopted a cloth veil, they did so contrary to the true teaching of Paul. This seems unlikely for several reasons:
1) This “misunderstanding” would have continued during the time Paul was still alive and able to correct them. Not only doesn’t Paul correct them even up to the day of his execution, but no one else even questions this so-called erroneous practice.
2) This “misunderstanding” would have been believed even though they had the great advantage of being native Greek speakers. Our modern scholars, twice removed from the Greek language, are better interpreters than the original readers? This is hard to believe. (John Calvin found this impossible to believe.) *
3) Supplying the words “long hair” wherever the word “covering” or “covered” is used results in confusion. Try this yourself. Not to mention, why use the cryptic “covering” when all you intend is long hair?
4) The strength of the hair = covering view is verse fifteen. However, (and native Greek speakers would have caught this) the Greek word for covering in verse fifteen is a completely different Greek word from those which proceed it. This disconnects verse fifteen from the proceeding in the sense that one is speaking of the natural hair, the other a veil.
5) The statement given in verse fifteen is that the hair is given “for” a covering. Some would understand this as “instead of” a covering, namely, a cloth veil. Yet when we understand the context of 1 Corinthians 11, we see that the inspired apostle is referring to the natural to illuminate the spiritual. The hair is the natural which should lead us to conclude a cloth veil is fitting. Therefore, we would like to submit the meaning “similar to” in replacement of “for” or “instead of”. (See for confirmation Appendix B) This would further weaken the “hair is the covering” position. Many evangelicals will pay lip service to the position that the hair is the covering. Don’t assume anyone is truly convinced this is so. Some specific questions, as outlined above, will create cracks in the facade of this theological house of cards.
Needless to say, I once lived in this shaky house. I once believed Jesus didn’t care about externals until His Spirit through His inspired apostles challenged me to look again. I thought whenever the words “tradition” or “custom” were used; it was man-made and therefore nonessential. I had learned that Corinthian women were being given a local solution to a local problem, not applicable to the church at large. Honestly, these positions were held to simply because on the surface they seemed reasonable. It is easy to be an expert at a glance. Yet God’s Word deserves more than a casual glance. In this, 1 Corinthians 8:2 speaks volumes: “And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know.” 
This verse reminds me of another one of my little arguments against literally observing any of 1 Corinthians 11:1-16. Verse sixteen says, “But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God.” Here I understood that if anyone didn’t want to go along with the head-covering and was argumentative, Paul was saying, “Forget the whole thing.” While this understanding seems plausible at first glance, various observations indicate this isn’t correct.
* “Should anyone now object that her hair is enough, as being a natural covering, Paul says it is not, for it (the hair) is such a covering as requires another thing to be made use of for covering it.”
(John Calvin Commentaries, Translated from the Latin 1848)
A) First, it strikes me as unlikely that the apostle would argue forcefully for the headship veiling, bringing in creation facts and even angels, then say, “But never mind if you don’t like it.” This really doesn’t make much sense. 
B) If the phrase “we have no such custom” is non-negotiable, then the illogical theory may be inescapable. But the Greek word translated “such” is translated “other” in several English translations. While this may seem confusing, keep in mind prepositions are very flexible. Their context often determines their meaning. The phrase “we have no other custom” completely changes the meaning, but is translated thusly in the New International Version, Moffatt, Revised Standard Version, Williams, Good News Bible, Phillips and the Amplified Bible. This is not a textural matter but a translation challenge. The word is too flexible to hang a conclusion on. Early Christians didn’t argue and obeyed.
Let us now return to the strongest argument against the headship veiling. We are told that the Corinthian Christian women were modeling the inappropriate practice of Corinthian prostitutes. Fairly representative of such a view is a footnote in the Life Application Bible: “We need to read it in the context of the situation in Corinth…For a woman to uncover her head in public was a sign of loose morals…Paul was saying that in the Corinthian culture, Christian women should keep their hair long…” (New Living Translation, Life Application Bible, p. 1818) Did Paul really write a concession to Corinthian culture? Could the very one who wrote “Do not be conformed to this world…” (Romans 12:2) really have let the Corinthian customs press him into their mold? Even more troubling is the thought that if Paul wrote teachings in the Corinthian letter based not on God’s infallible Spirit, but on human judgments, what else is cultural? 1 
Both Appendix A and B cover aspects of the cultural arguments, and I would urge you to read both. Briefly I want to explain what the actual situation was in both Jewish and Greek cultures. This hopefully will answer the question: Does 1 Corinthians 11:1-16 reflect the culture of that time? 
Our discussion has centered on the head-covering for women. Yet equally innovative for a Jewish man was Paul’s inspired teaching in 11:4: “Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head.” Jewish men covered their heads when entering prayer settings (see Exodus 29:6; Leviticus 16:4) and still do. First Corinthians 11:4 isn’t traditional Jewish teaching. Greek prostitutes for sure didn’t cover their heads, this is true. But what isn’t said is that Greek women, as well as their men folk, in general didn’t cover their heads while praying. So the head-covering isn’t in conformity to Greek practice. This brought the Tyndale Commentary to conclude: “Christians adopted a distinctive practice of their own.” (Volume 7, p.152) Another quote is helpful: “(Paul’s) teaching in 1 Corinthians goes far beyond the cultural conditions affecting the Corinthian church. Indeed it was applicable also to other first century churches (1 Corinthians 11:16b) and to God’s people at any time. 2
Still, although all this was true, I could hardly believe that in all my Christian experience, no one had seen any of this. How could the truth be so obscure? 
What I discovered next truly surprised me. In a commentary dated 1916, I read: “To this day, the universal custom in Christian places of worship, of women being covered and men uncovered and the increasing revolt against the acknowledgment of the subordination of women to men, etc…” (Layman Commentary, 1916, p. 106) 
1 Various groups are willing to help us in our search. The Metropolitan Community Church suggests Paul’s prohibition of homosexuality was a similar reaction to the Corinthian temple prostitution cult.
2 For an excellent treatment of the Jewish and Grecian practices, see Expositor’s Bible Commentary, Volume 10, pp. 254-257)
Was the head-covering still common practice in 1916? Apparently so. In 1928, Charles Erdman’s Commentary contained these comments: “It is interesting to observe that while the habit of covering the head in public worship is but a trivial custom which obtained in the days of Paul, it is still almost universally observed among Christians. Its real meaning is little understood. Its true significance is almost forgotten. However, the important principle it once represented is everywhere questioned or rejected in the alleged interest of the rights and liberties of women.”
It is surprising to realize that the veiling has been removed so recently. In the end, the covering was quarantined to public worship. Yet John Calvin’s observations demonstrate this too was a recent deterioration: “…women should not go out in public with uncovered heads.” (Calvin’s Institutes, Book 4, Chapter 10, Section 29)* 
Even here we got tripped up into believing the veiling was properly suited to the church service alone. “After all,” I reasoned, “where do we pray and prophecy?” At church. What happened as we deepened our understanding of what constitutes true “church”? Is true “church” only that which happens on Sunday in the “house of God”? Little by little, it dawned on us that we were always members of the church and that anytime we shared Jesus and prayed, this was as much “having church” as any other time. Home Bible studies were surely church (see Acts 16:13). In the grocery store witnessing to searching souls was church. We would slip into church over and over using the head-covering like a convertible top on a rainy day. Up and down it would go until the foolishness of this finally settled in. 
Overlooked in all this was that our text doesn’t say it is just about praying or prophesying. The focus was more on the demonstration of God’s created order. “God-Christ-Man-Woman.” This doesn’t need to be demonstrated just in church. And, “because of the angels” (11:10) doesn’t seem to imply church settings only, unless angels only go to church and not to the home studies, or grocery store or the beach. Angels minister to us wherever we are. (See Hebrews 1:12; 13:2; Luke 22:43; 2 Kings 6:17)
Do you recall the tale of Gulliver’s travels? After a ship wreck, a solitary man is washed ashore on a strange island. He awakens to find himself tied down by hundreds of miniature ropes and surrounded by hundreds of miniature people. This, of course, is a fantastic fable, far-fetched in the extreme. Yet, this picture accurately illustrates the way I feel God dealt with us as He laid reason after reason over our minds, bringing us into conformity to His will. As in Gulliver’s story, at any time he could have lifted himself up, broke free of the Lilliputians’ constraints; so can any of us resist the Holy Spirit’s leading. In the case of the miniature Lilliputians, they were too small to control Gulliver, but in the Holy Spirit’s case, it isn’t that He isn’t able to forcibly tie us down, but that He is unwilling.
As you can see from this paper, there are specific, Scriptural, reasonable arguments that may be submitted in favor of the headship veiling. More important, however, is our personal willingness to submit to God’s inspired Word. Bible experts are everywhere offering their counsel. Yet there remains but one Wonderful Counselor: Jesus Christ our Lord. The Jews, expert as they were in God’s law, murdered the holy and just one. As it is written, “But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God for themselves…” (Luke 7:30a) I trust you will not make the same mistake. 
God bless you,
Don and Lauren Childs
John Calvin lived from 1509 to 1564.
Appendix A
Widely respected Bible teacher R. C. Sproul’s comments from the book, “Knowing Scripture”: “Some very subtle means of relativizing the text occur when we read into the text cultural considerations that ought not to be there. For example, with respect to the hair-covering issue in Corinth, numerous commentators on the Epistle point out that the local sign of the prostitute in Corinth was the uncovered head. Therefore, the argument runs, the reason why Paul wanted women to cover their heads was to avoid a scandalous appearance of Christian women in the external guise of prostitutes.
What is wrong with this kind of speculation? The basic problem here is that our reconstructed knowledge of first-century Corinth has led us to supply Paul with a rationale that is foreign to the one he gives himself. In a word, we are not only putting words into the apostle’s mouth, but we are ignoring the words that are there. If Paul merely told women in Corinth to cover their heads and have no rationale for such instruction, we would be strongly inclined to supply it via our cultural knowledge. In this case, however, Paul provides a rationale which is based on an appeal to creation not to the custom of Corinthian harlots. We must be careful not to let our zeal for knowledge of the culture obscure what is actually said. To subordinate Paul’s stated reason to our speculatively conceived reason is to slander the apostle and turn exegesis into eisegesis.
3. The creation ordinances are indicators of the transcultural principle. If any biblical principles transcend local customary limits, they are the appeals drawn from creation. Appeals to creation ordinances reflect stipulations a covenant God makes with man qua man. The laws of creation are not given to man as Hebrew or man as Christian or man as Corinthian, but are rooted in basic human responsibility to God. To set principles of creation aside as mere local custom is the worst kind of relativizing and dehistoricizing of the biblical content.”
(Knowing Scripture, p. 110-111; R. C. Sproul, professor of Systematic Theology and Apologetics at Reformed Theological Seminary.)
Appendix B
Are There Cultural Aspects of the Bible?
(and, thereby, Portions of Scripture Not Applicable for Today?) 
Gil Rugh 4-24-88
“As we approach the Scriptures and interpret it, we interpret it in a literal or normal way according to the rules of grammar in light of the historical setting in which it was given by God. We need to be very careful we don’t write-off portions of the Word saying, ‘That was cultural.’ Because everything in the Word of God was cultural…it was written within the culture within which it was given. So the cultural arguments simply become an excuse [for some] to reject whatever portion of the Word of God that does not fit with what (they and) the world are doing in this area today. The Word of God transcends culture. What is important here is that it is God giving these instructions. Some say, ‘Well, these portions simply reflect the cultural practices of that period of time.’ That is a denial of the inspiration of Scripture.” (Taken from: “Family Fitness: Equal But Different”; Biblical Discernment Ministries)
Titus 1:9 – “…holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.”
Our Journey to Obeying I Corinthians 11
Occasionally, a chronicle of one’s personal, spiritual journey can be beneficial to others. While humbling to tell, it can be encouraging to others to hear of the baby steps fellow Christians make. This paper is a combination of both personal testimony and Scriptural investigation. The topic isn’t even considered worthy of serious study in most Christian circles. Yet this Biblical teaching is found in a New Testament letter which today is both popular and timely. The letter is 1 Corinthians, and the topic is the headship veiling of chapter 11.
Embarrassing as it is to admit, I believe I can safely say I’ve held to almost every possible interpretation. The only consolation to this is the fact that, while ignorant, I was at least honest. It is important to remember to be sympathetic to those who dismiss the headship veiling as unimportant. In today’s Christian circles, this text is almost completely ignored or mishandled.
(1) R. C. Sproul (2) has chided today’s expositors for engaging in eisegesis of the worst kind as regards 1 Corinthians 11:1-16. (R. C. Sproul’s comments are contained in Appendix A.)
In my opinion, the modern Christian is insulated from even beginning to consider this teaching by various erroneous assumptions. For me personally, it was a misunderstanding of the very words of Jesus. Christ stood as a road block to further investigation. The unwarranted assumption was simply this: Jesus’ message stands in opposition to any consideration of externals; especially in regards to clothing issues. A few of those misunderstood statements would include:
1) “Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life…nor about your body, what you
  will put on.” (Matthew 7:25)
  2) “Do not judge according to appearance…” (John 7:24a)
3) “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. (Matthew 23:27)
4) “Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.” (Matthew 23:26)
These verses are used to derail the discussion even before it gets started. In the early days of my Christian walk, I would have simply brushed aside the entire issue with a pious cliché, “Let’s not major on the minors.” Yet, now I believe that such cavalier dismissal of Scripture is wrong for the following reasons:
  1) It is Scripture we are doing away with, not some extra-Biblical writing. (Recall
  2 Timothy 3:16-17: “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for
  doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God
  may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”)
2) Peter and Paul both deal with the externals: of clothing, etc. If they were lead by the
  Holy Spirit to address these matters, are we more “spiritual” now than even the apostles 
  themselves?
  3) Church history shows that Christians for hundreds of years in different lands accepted
  this Scripture as applicable. Can we really assume they misunderstood, and we are so 
  much wiser? 
(1) Professor of Systematic Theology and Apologetics at Reformed Theological Seminary
(2) Knowing Scripture, p. 110, R. C. Sproul, I.V.P.
4) That which we relegate to the “minor” commandments may be more essential than we
  realize. If we could see as the Good Shepherd sees, we might adjust our thinking. 
  (Matthew 5:19; Isaiah 55:8-9)
None of the aforementioned, of course, proves that 1 Corinthians 11:1-16 is to be obeyed literally today, but it does begin to make the way clear to an open-hearted study. Put in the plainest terms – all Scripture is worthy of serious study, is it not? Admittedly, there was a time in our own Christian walk when ANY discussion of externals of this nature would have immediately been branded as “Pharisaical.” Now, while the way may seem clear to begin a serious study, usually another smoke bomb is dropped into the discussion. In verses two and sixteen, two similar words are used (varying according to translation) namely, “tradition” and “custom” (KJV – “ordinances”). Here an unwarranted assumption is made again. I made this assumption for years. The erroneous thought is this: tradition and custom are always in opposition to Jesus Christ’s own teaching. I’ve heard these words pronounced with a snarl in the voice: “Tradition! Ha!” “Custom! Right!” Inferred in this is that Jesus hated tradition (Matthew 15) and hates it still, and that whenever we read the word ‘tradition’ or ‘custom’, it is always man-made and never used positively. This, of course, is not what the New Testament shows. Two examples will be sufficient concerning the word ‘tradition’:
A) “Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.” (2 Thessalonians 2:15) (Gk: #3682 Strong‘s)
B) “But we command you brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us.” (2 Thessalonians 3:6) (Gk: #3682 Strong‘s)
This word pronounced par-ad’-os-is used here in Thessalonians is the same used by our Lord Jesus in Matthew 15. The Greek lexicons define it as: “transmission i.e. (concretely) a precept, ordinance.” (Strong’s, p. 1072); “That which is delivered, the substance of teaching.” (Thayer’s Greek/English Lexicon, p. 481); “What is transmitted in the way of teaching, precept, doctrine.” (Analytical Lexicon, p. 302). Simply put, the word tradition isn’t a bad word, contrary to my earlier belief. It can be used with reference to man’s teaching or God’s – depending on the context. Kittel’s sums it up very well with this comment: “For Paul, Christian teaching is tradition, and he demands that churches should keep to it since salvation depends on it.” (Kittel’s Theological Dictionary, Volume 2, p. 172)
The situation concerning the word “custom” is very similar. We assumed that “custom” was man-made ordinances. Yet, simply put, the Greek word used here means “usage, habit.” (We’ll deal at length with what the actual cultural context was in Corinth a little later.) Suffice it to say, custom isn’t a bad word either, at least in this context. On the matter of custom in general, one short quote is helpful: “All we have for sure is the text on the pages of the Bible! God wrote it for us, to us and preserved it as we have it today. No information external to the text about the presumed cultural influence on the Apostle Paul’s attitude toward women, worship or anything else can be known with certainty. Therefore, it may never be used to negate, deny, or change the plain and direct meaning of the words of the text.” (Reformed Witness Magazine, March 1992) The thorough treatment of the cultural context will come later. It is my belief that modern evangelical Christians have made void the commandment of God concerning the headship veiling in conformity to our customs. It isn’t that the apostle spoke as influenced by his culture but the culture of pseudo-equality twists our minds!
Surely, after all this, the way is clear for a serious look at the text. “But,” we’re told, “this precept (1 Corinthians 11:1-16) is only mentioned once; therefore it must not be all that important. After all, by the mouth of two or three witnesses, every charge must be established, right?” Do we believe that if we can’t find two or three verses on any given subject, then it really doesn’t matter? Two items come to mind as I consider such a claim:
A) Melchizedek – Are things only important when they are mentioned a lot? If 1 Corinthians 11:1-16 isn’t valuable, then neither is Melchizedek. But in Hebrews 7:4 we read: “Now consider how great this man was, to whom even the patriarch Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils.” While he is hardly referenced, he is greater than Abraham! (Hebrews 7:7) *
  B) Baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is only mentioned once in the New Testament. Could this be not important? 
C) The mark of the beast: 666 – Not important? Well, this is mentioned once in Revelation 13! Can we safely disregard the warning in this Scripture? After all, it is mentioned only once. Items may appear to be more important or less important because of the number of citations, but this is not a Scriptural way to make such an evaluation.
It is regularly maintained that the headship teaching was a problem peculiar to Christians in Corinth. This is what I thought for a long time. And for a long time, I had no motivation to look any further. But as I looked again, this theory began to unravel as well. 
The first question is: Did Corinthian women have a problem with their observance (or should I say their non-observance) of the headship veiling? Consider 1 Corinthians 11:2: “Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.” Can we say from this, contrary to verse two, that they didn’t keep the traditions? Nevertheless, Paul does proceed to say immediately following his commendation, “But I would have you know that…” It appears they were obeying, but ignorantly. If the Corinthian women did wear the covering, Paul very well could have been led by the Holy Spirit’s illumination rather than local conditions at Corinth. We do know the letter wasn’t written just to the Corinthian church – see 1 Corinthians 1:2: “To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours.” (See also the custom mentioned in Colossians 4:16 of sharing letters: “Now when this epistle is read among you, see that it is read also in the church of the Laodiceans, and that you likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.”)
Also 1 Corinthians 11:16 uses the phrase “neither do the churches of God”; possibly indicating this teaching wasn’t unique to Corinth. (On this point, the Wycliffe Commentary [Moody Publishing], agrees and adds similar points as well.) Besides all this, Paul himself cites no special Corinthian situation anywhere in his teaching. A portion of the Wycliffe Commentary may be helpful at this point: “It should be noted; however, that each of the reasons given for the wearing of the veil is taken from permanent facts lasting as long as the present earthly economy. Paul did carry his point, for early church history bears witness that in Rome, Antioch and Africa, the custom became the norm.” (Wycliffe Commentary, 1962, Moody Press) We also know the “custom” extended eventually to all Christian communities until quite recently. If this teaching was originally intended to be merely a local response to a unique problem, the entire early church misunderstood! For early drawings show Christian women wearing “…a close fitting headdress while men have their hair short (and also presumably uncovered). Tertullian and Chrysostom testify that these injunctions of Paul prevailed in the churches.” (Vincent’s Word Studies, Volume III,
p. 787)
As you can see, there is a lot of work that needs to be done just to get to the text, but now that we’ve cleared some debris, we can move on to the first real argument which I believe makes any sense. The view maintains that the hair is the covering. Obviously this can’t just be hair since then the men would need to shave their heads. 
* The actual references to Melchizedek include Genesis 14; Psalm 110; and Hebrews 7
What is being proposed is that women ought to have long hair, and this is what Paul intended. This is maintained despite the fact that the entire early church interpreted Paul as teaching a cloth veiling over the hair! (See previous quotes)
We are simply being asked to believe that when the church adopted a cloth veil, they did so contrary to the true teaching of Paul. This seems unlikely for several reasons:
1) This “misunderstanding” would have continued during the time Paul was still alive and able to correct them. Not only doesn’t Paul correct them even up to the day of his execution, but no one else even questions this so-called erroneous practice.
2) This “misunderstanding” would have been believed even though they had the great advantage of being native Greek speakers. Our modern scholars, twice removed from the Greek language, are better interpreters than the original readers? This is hard to believe. (John Calvin found this impossible to believe.) *
3) Supplying the words “long hair” wherever the word “covering” or “covered” is used results in confusion. Try this yourself. Not to mention, why use the cryptic “covering” when all you intend is long hair?
4) The strength of the hair = covering view is verse fifteen. However, (and native Greek speakers would have caught this) the Greek word for covering in verse fifteen is a completely different Greek word from those which proceed it. This disconnects verse fifteen from the proceeding in the sense that one is speaking of the natural hair, the other a veil.
5) The statement given in verse fifteen is that the hair is given “for” a covering. Some would understand this as “instead of” a covering, namely, a cloth veil. Yet when we understand the context of 1 Corinthians 11, we see that the inspired apostle is referring to the natural to illuminate the spiritual. The hair is the natural which should lead us to conclude a cloth veil is fitting. Therefore, we would like to submit the meaning “similar to” in replacement of “for” or “instead of”. (See for confirmation Appendix B) This would further weaken the “hair is the covering” position. Many evangelicals will pay lip service to the position that the hair is the covering. Don’t assume anyone is truly convinced this is so. Some specific questions, as outlined above, will create cracks in the facade of this theological house of cards.
Needless to say, I once lived in this shaky house. I once believed Jesus didn’t care about externals until His Spirit through His inspired apostles challenged me to look again. I thought whenever the words “tradition” or “custom” were used; it was man-made and therefore nonessential. I had learned that Corinthian women were being given a local solution to a local problem, not applicable to the church at large. Honestly, these positions were held to simply because on the surface they seemed reasonable. It is easy to be an expert at a glance. Yet God’s Word deserves more than a casual glance. In this, 1 Corinthians 8:2 speaks volumes: “And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know.” 
This verse reminds me of another one of my little arguments against literally observing any of 1 Corinthians 11:1-16. Verse sixteen says, “But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God.” Here I understood that if anyone didn’t want to go along with the head-covering and was argumentative, Paul was saying, “Forget the whole thing.” While this understanding seems plausible at first glance, various observations indicate this isn’t correct.
* “Should anyone now object that her hair is enough, as being a natural covering, Paul says it is not, for it (the hair) is such a covering as requires another thing to be made use of for covering it.”
(John Calvin Commentaries, Translated from the Latin 1848)
A) First, it strikes me as unlikely that the apostle would argue forcefully for the headship veiling, bringing in creation facts and even angels, then say, “But never mind if you don’t like it.” This really doesn’t make much sense. 
B) If the phrase “we have no such custom” is non-negotiable, then the illogical theory may be inescapable. But the Greek word translated “such” is translated “other” in several English translations. While this may seem confusing, keep in mind prepositions are very flexible. Their context often determines their meaning. The phrase “we have no other custom” completely changes the meaning, but is translated thusly in the New International Version, Moffatt, Revised Standard Version, Williams, Good News Bible, Phillips and the Amplified Bible. This is not a textural matter but a translation challenge. The word is too flexible to hang a conclusion on. Early Christians didn’t argue and obeyed.
Let us now return to the strongest argument against the headship veiling. We are told that the Corinthian Christian women were modeling the inappropriate practice of Corinthian prostitutes. Fairly representative of such a view is a footnote in the Life Application Bible: “We need to read it in the context of the situation in Corinth…For a woman to uncover her head in public was a sign of loose morals…Paul was saying that in the Corinthian culture, Christian women should keep their hair long…” (New Living Translation, Life Application Bible, p. 1818) Did Paul really write a concession to Corinthian culture? Could the very one who wrote “Do not be conformed to this world…” (Romans 12:2) really have let the Corinthian customs press him into their mold? Even more troubling is the thought that if Paul wrote teachings in the Corinthian letter based not on God’s infallible Spirit, but on human judgments, what else is cultural? 1 
Both Appendix A and B cover aspects of the cultural arguments, and I would urge you to read both. Briefly I want to explain what the actual situation was in both Jewish and Greek cultures. This hopefully will answer the question: Does 1 Corinthians 11:1-16 reflect the culture of that time? 
Our discussion has centered on the head-covering for women. Yet equally innovative for a Jewish man was Paul’s inspired teaching in 11:4: “Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head.” Jewish men covered their heads when entering prayer settings (see Exodus 29:6; Leviticus 16:4) and still do. First Corinthians 11:4 isn’t traditional Jewish teaching. Greek prostitutes for sure didn’t cover their heads, this is true. But what isn’t said is that Greek women, as well as their men folk, in general didn’t cover their heads while praying. So the head-covering isn’t in conformity to Greek practice. This brought the Tyndale Commentary to conclude: “Christians adopted a distinctive practice of their own.” (Volume 7, p.152) Another quote is helpful: “(Paul’s) teaching in 1 Corinthians goes far beyond the cultural conditions affecting the Corinthian church. Indeed it was applicable also to other first century churches (1 Corinthians 11:16b) and to God’s people at any time. 2
Still, although all this was true, I could hardly believe that in all my Christian experience, no one had seen any of this. How could the truth be so obscure? 
What I discovered next truly surprised me. In a commentary dated 1916, I read: “To this day, the universal custom in Christian places of worship, of women being covered and men uncovered and the increasing revolt against the acknowledgment of the subordination of women to men, etc…” (Layman Commentary, 1916, p. 106) 
1 Various groups are willing to help us in our search. The Metropolitan Community Church suggests Paul’s prohibition of homosexuality was a similar reaction to the Corinthian temple prostitution cult.
2 For an excellent treatment of the Jewish and Grecian practices, see Expositor’s Bible Commentary, Volume 10, pp. 254-257)
Was the head-covering still common practice in 1916? Apparently so. In 1928, Charles Erdman’s Commentary contained these comments: “It is interesting to observe that while the habit of covering the head in public worship is but a trivial custom which obtained in the days of Paul, it is still almost universally observed among Christians. Its real meaning is little understood. Its true significance is almost forgotten. However, the important principle it once represented is everywhere questioned or rejected in the alleged interest of the rights and liberties of women.”
It is surprising to realize that the veiling has been removed so recently. In the end, the covering was quarantined to public worship. Yet John Calvin’s observations demonstrate this too was a recent deterioration: “…women should not go out in public with uncovered heads.” (Calvin’s Institutes, Book 4, Chapter 10, Section 29)* 
Even here we got tripped up into believing the veiling was properly suited to the church service alone. “After all,” I reasoned, “where do we pray and prophecy?” At church. What happened as we deepened our understanding of what constitutes true “church”? Is true “church” only that which happens on Sunday in the “house of God”? Little by little, it dawned on us that we were always members of the church and that anytime we shared Jesus and prayed, this was as much “having church” as any other time. Home Bible studies were surely church (see Acts 16:13). In the grocery store witnessing to searching souls was church. We would slip into church over and over using the head-covering like a convertible top on a rainy day. Up and down it would go until the foolishness of this finally settled in. 
Overlooked in all this was that our text doesn’t say it is just about praying or prophesying. The focus was more on the demonstration of God’s created order. “God-Christ-Man-Woman.” This doesn’t need to be demonstrated just in church. And, “because of the angels” (11:10) doesn’t seem to imply church settings only, unless angels only go to church and not to the home studies, or grocery store or the beach. Angels minister to us wherever we are. (See Hebrews 1:12; 13:2; Luke 22:43; 2 Kings 6:17)
Do you recall the tale of Gulliver’s travels? After a ship wreck, a solitary man is washed ashore on a strange island. He awakens to find himself tied down by hundreds of miniature ropes and surrounded by hundreds of miniature people. This, of course, is a fantastic fable, far-fetched in the extreme. Yet, this picture accurately illustrates the way I feel God dealt with us as He laid reason after reason over our minds, bringing us into conformity to His will. As in Gulliver’s story, at any time he could have lifted himself up, broke free of the Lilliputians’ constraints; so can any of us resist the Holy Spirit’s leading. In the case of the miniature Lilliputians, they were too small to control Gulliver, but in the Holy Spirit’s case, it isn’t that He isn’t able to forcibly tie us down, but that He is unwilling.
As you can see from this paper, there are specific, Scriptural, reasonable arguments that may be submitted in favor of the headship veiling. More important, however, is our personal willingness to submit to God’s inspired Word. Bible experts are everywhere offering their counsel. Yet there remains but one Wonderful Counselor: Jesus Christ our Lord. The Jews, expert as they were in God’s law, murdered the holy and just one. As it is written, “But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God for themselves…” (Luke 7:30a) I trust you will not make the same mistake. 
God bless you,
Don and Lauren Childs
John Calvin lived from 1509 to 1564.
Appendix A
Widely respected Bible teacher R. C. Sproul’s comments from the book, “Knowing Scripture”: “Some very subtle means of relativizing the text occur when we read into the text cultural considerations that ought not to be there. For example, with respect to the hair-covering issue in Corinth, numerous commentators on the Epistle point out that the local sign of the prostitute in Corinth was the uncovered head. Therefore, the argument runs, the reason why Paul wanted women to cover their heads was to avoid a scandalous appearance of Christian women in the external guise of prostitutes.
What is wrong with this kind of speculation? The basic problem here is that our reconstructed knowledge of first-century Corinth has led us to supply Paul with a rationale that is foreign to the one he gives himself. In a word, we are not only putting words into the apostle’s mouth, but we are ignoring the words that are there. If Paul merely told women in Corinth to cover their heads and have no rationale for such instruction, we would be strongly inclined to supply it via our cultural knowledge. In this case, however, Paul provides a rationale which is based on an appeal to creation not to the custom of Corinthian harlots. We must be careful not to let our zeal for knowledge of the culture obscure what is actually said. To subordinate Paul’s stated reason to our speculatively conceived reason is to slander the apostle and turn exegesis into eisegesis.
3. The creation ordinances are indicators of the transcultural principle. If any biblical principles transcend local customary limits, they are the appeals drawn from creation. Appeals to creation ordinances reflect stipulations a covenant God makes with man qua man. The laws of creation are not given to man as Hebrew or man as Christian or man as Corinthian, but are rooted in basic human responsibility to God. To set principles of creation aside as mere local custom is the worst kind of relativizing and dehistoricizing of the biblical content.”
(Knowing Scripture, p. 110-111; R. C. Sproul, professor of Systematic Theology and Apologetics at Reformed Theological Seminary.)
Appendix B
Are There Cultural Aspects of the Bible?
(and, thereby, Portions of Scripture Not Applicable for Today?) 
Gil Rugh 4-24-88
“As we approach the Scriptures and interpret it, we interpret it in a literal or normal way according to the rules of grammar in light of the historical setting in which it was given by God. We need to be very careful we don’t write-off portions of the Word saying, ‘That was cultural.’ Because everything in the Word of God was cultural…it was written within the culture within which it was given. So the cultural arguments simply become an excuse [for some] to reject whatever portion of the Word of God that does not fit with what (they and) the world are doing in this area today. The Word of God transcends culture. What is important here is that it is God giving these instructions. Some say, ‘Well, these portions simply reflect the cultural practices of that period of time.’ That is a denial of the inspiration of Scripture.” (Taken from: “Family Fitness: Equal But Different”; Biblical Discernment Ministries)
Titus 1:9 – “…holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.”
Our Journey to Obeying I Corinthians 11
Occasionally, a chronicle of one’s personal, spiritual journey can be beneficial to others. While humbling to tell, it can be encouraging to others to hear of the baby steps fellow Christians make. This paper is a combination of both personal testimony and Scriptural investigation. The topic isn’t even considered worthy of serious study in most Christian circles. Yet this Biblical teaching is found in a New Testament letter which today is both popular and timely. The letter is 1 Corinthians, and the topic is the headship veiling of chapter 11.
Embarrassing as it is to admit, I believe I can safely say I’ve held to almost every possible interpretation. The only consolation to this is the fact that, while ignorant, I was at least honest. It is important to remember to be sympathetic to those who dismiss the headship veiling as unimportant. In today’s Christian circles, this text is almost completely ignored or mishandled.
(1) R. C. Sproul (2) has chided today’s expositors for engaging in eisegesis of the worst kind as regards 1 Corinthians 11:1-16. (R. C. Sproul’s comments are contained in Appendix A.)
In my opinion, the modern Christian is insulated from even beginning to consider this teaching by various erroneous assumptions. For me personally, it was a misunderstanding of the very words of Jesus. Christ stood as a road block to further investigation. The unwarranted assumption was simply this: Jesus’ message stands in opposition to any consideration of externals; especially in regards to clothing issues. A few of those misunderstood statements would include:
1) “Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life…nor about your body, what you
  will put on.” (Matthew 7:25)
  2) “Do not judge according to appearance…” (John 7:24a)
3) “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. (Matthew 23:27)
4) “Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.” (Matthew 23:26)
These verses are used to derail the discussion even before it gets started. In the early days of my Christian walk, I would have simply brushed aside the entire issue with a pious cliché, “Let’s not major on the minors.” Yet, now I believe that such cavalier dismissal of Scripture is wrong for the following reasons:
  1) It is Scripture we are doing away with, not some extra-Biblical writing. (Recall
  2 Timothy 3:16-17: “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for
  doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God
  may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”)
2) Peter and Paul both deal with the externals: of clothing, etc. If they were lead by the
  Holy Spirit to address these matters, are we more “spiritual” now than even the apostles 
  themselves?
  3) Church history shows that Christians for hundreds of years in different lands accepted
  this Scripture as applicable. Can we really assume they misunderstood, and we are so 
  much wiser? 
(1) Professor of Systematic Theology and Apologetics at Reformed Theological Seminary
(2) Knowing Scripture, p. 110, R. C. Sproul, I.V.P.
4) That which we relegate to the “minor” commandments may be more essential than we
  realize. If we could see as the Good Shepherd sees, we might adjust our thinking. 
  (Matthew 5:19; Isaiah 55:8-9)
None of the aforementioned, of course, proves that 1 Corinthians 11:1-16 is to be obeyed literally today, but it does begin to make the way clear to an open-hearted study. Put in the plainest terms – all Scripture is worthy of serious study, is it not? Admittedly, there was a time in our own Christian walk when ANY discussion of externals of this nature would have immediately been branded as “Pharisaical.” Now, while the way may seem clear to begin a serious study, usually another smoke bomb is dropped into the discussion. In verses two and sixteen, two similar words are used (varying according to translation) namely, “tradition” and “custom” (KJV – “ordinances”). Here an unwarranted assumption is made again. I made this assumption for years. The erroneous thought is this: tradition and custom are always in opposition to Jesus Christ’s own teaching. I’ve heard these words pronounced with a snarl in the voice: “Tradition! Ha!” “Custom! Right!” Inferred in this is that Jesus hated tradition (Matthew 15) and hates it still, and that whenever we read the word ‘tradition’ or ‘custom’, it is always man-made and never used positively. This, of course, is not what the New Testament shows. Two examples will be sufficient concerning the word ‘tradition’:
A) “Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.” (2 Thessalonians 2:15) (Gk: #3682 Strong‘s)
B) “But we command you brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us.” (2 Thessalonians 3:6) (Gk: #3682 Strong‘s)
This word pronounced par-ad’-os-is used here in Thessalonians is the same used by our Lord Jesus in Matthew 15. The Greek lexicons define it as: “transmission i.e. (concretely) a precept, ordinance.” (Strong’s, p. 1072); “That which is delivered, the substance of teaching.” (Thayer’s Greek/English Lexicon, p. 481); “What is transmitted in the way of teaching, precept, doctrine.” (Analytical Lexicon, p. 302). Simply put, the word tradition isn’t a bad word, contrary to my earlier belief. It can be used with reference to man’s teaching or God’s – depending on the context. Kittel’s sums it up very well with this comment: “For Paul, Christian teaching is tradition, and he demands that churches should keep to it since salvation depends on it.” (Kittel’s Theological Dictionary, Volume 2, p. 172)
The situation concerning the word “custom” is very similar. We assumed that “custom” was man-made ordinances. Yet, simply put, the Greek word used here means “usage, habit.” (We’ll deal at length with what the actual cultural context was in Corinth a little later.) Suffice it to say, custom isn’t a bad word either, at least in this context. On the matter of custom in general, one short quote is helpful: “All we have for sure is the text on the pages of the Bible! God wrote it for us, to us and preserved it as we have it today. No information external to the text about the presumed cultural influence on the Apostle Paul’s attitude toward women, worship or anything else can be known with certainty. Therefore, it may never be used to negate, deny, or change the plain and direct meaning of the words of the text.” (Reformed Witness Magazine, March 1992) The thorough treatment of the cultural context will come later. It is my belief that modern evangelical Christians have made void the commandment of God concerning the headship veiling in conformity to our customs. It isn’t that the apostle spoke as influenced by his culture but the culture of pseudo-equality twists our minds!
Surely, after all this, the way is clear for a serious look at the text. “But,” we’re told, “this precept (1 Corinthians 11:1-16) is only mentioned once; therefore it must not be all that important. After all, by the mouth of two or three witnesses, every charge must be established, right?” Do we believe that if we can’t find two or three verses on any given subject, then it really doesn’t matter? Two items come to mind as I consider such a claim:
A) Melchizedek – Are things only important when they are mentioned a lot? If 1 Corinthians 11:1-16 isn’t valuable, then neither is Melchizedek. But in Hebrews 7:4 we read: “Now consider how great this man was, to whom even the patriarch Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils.” While he is hardly referenced, he is greater than Abraham! (Hebrews 7:7) *
  B) Baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is only mentioned once in the New Testament. Could this be not important? 
C) The mark of the beast: 666 – Not important? Well, this is mentioned once in Revelation 13! Can we safely disregard the warning in this Scripture? After all, it is mentioned only once. Items may appear to be more important or less important because of the number of citations, but this is not a Scriptural way to make such an evaluation.
It is regularly maintained that the headship teaching was a problem peculiar to Christians in Corinth. This is what I thought for a long time. And for a long time, I had no motivation to look any further. But as I looked again, this theory began to unravel as well. 
The first question is: Did Corinthian women have a problem with their observance (or should I say their non-observance) of the headship veiling? Consider 1 Corinthians 11:2: “Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.” Can we say from this, contrary to verse two, that they didn’t keep the traditions? Nevertheless, Paul does proceed to say immediately following his commendation, “But I would have you know that…” It appears they were obeying, but ignorantly. If the Corinthian women did wear the covering, Paul very well could have been led by the Holy Spirit’s illumination rather than local conditions at Corinth. We do know the letter wasn’t written just to the Corinthian church – see 1 Corinthians 1:2: “To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours.” (See also the custom mentioned in Colossians 4:16 of sharing letters: “Now when this epistle is read among you, see that it is read also in the church of the Laodiceans, and that you likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.”)
Also 1 Corinthians 11:16 uses the phrase “neither do the churches of God”; possibly indicating this teaching wasn’t unique to Corinth. (On this point, the Wycliffe Commentary [Moody Publishing], agrees and adds similar points as well.) Besides all this, Paul himself cites no special Corinthian situation anywhere in his teaching. A portion of the Wycliffe Commentary may be helpful at this point: “It should be noted; however, that each of the reasons given for the wearing of the veil is taken from permanent facts lasting as long as the present earthly economy. Paul did carry his point, for early church history bears witness that in Rome, Antioch and Africa, the custom became the norm.” (Wycliffe Commentary, 1962, Moody Press) We also know the “custom” extended eventually to all Christian communities until quite recently. If this teaching was originally intended to be merely a local response to a unique problem, the entire early church misunderstood! For early drawings show Christian women wearing “…a close fitting headdress while men have their hair short (and also presumably uncovered). Tertullian and Chrysostom testify that these injunctions of Paul prevailed in the churches.” (Vincent’s Word Studies, Volume III,
p. 787)
As you can see, there is a lot of work that needs to be done just to get to the text, but now that we’ve cleared some debris, we can move on to the first real argument which I believe makes any sense. The view maintains that the hair is the covering. Obviously this can’t just be hair since then the men would need to shave their heads. 
* The actual references to Melchizedek include Genesis 14; Psalm 110; and Hebrews 7
What is being proposed is that women ought to have long hair, and this is what Paul intended. This is maintained despite the fact that the entire early church interpreted Paul as teaching a cloth veiling over the hair! (See previous quotes)
We are simply being asked to believe that when the church adopted a cloth veil, they did so contrary to the true teaching of Paul. This seems unlikely for several reasons:
1) This “misunderstanding” would have continued during the time Paul was still alive and able to correct them. Not only doesn’t Paul correct them even up to the day of his execution, but no one else even questions this so-called erroneous practice.
2) This “misunderstanding” would have been believed even though they had the great advantage of being native Greek speakers. Our modern scholars, twice removed from the Greek language, are better interpreters than the original readers? This is hard to believe. (John Calvin found this impossible to believe.) *
3) Supplying the words “long hair” wherever the word “covering” or “covered” is used results in confusion. Try this yourself. Not to mention, why use the cryptic “covering” when all you intend is long hair?
4) The strength of the hair = covering view is verse fifteen. However, (and native Greek speakers would have caught this) the Greek word for covering in verse fifteen is a completely different Greek word from those which proceed it. This disconnects verse fifteen from the proceeding in the sense that one is speaking of the natural hair, the other a veil.
5) The statement given in verse fifteen is that the hair is given “for” a covering. Some would understand this as “instead of” a covering, namely, a cloth veil. Yet when we understand the context of 1 Corinthians 11, we see that the inspired apostle is referring to the natural to illuminate the spiritual. The hair is the natural which should lead us to conclude a cloth veil is fitting. Therefore, we would like to submit the meaning “similar to” in replacement of “for” or “instead of”. (See for confirmation Appendix B) This would further weaken the “hair is the covering” position. Many evangelicals will pay lip service to the position that the hair is the covering. Don’t assume anyone is truly convinced this is so. Some specific questions, as outlined above, will create cracks in the facade of this theological house of cards.
Needless to say, I once lived in this shaky house. I once believed Jesus didn’t care about externals until His Spirit through His inspired apostles challenged me to look again. I thought whenever the words “tradition” or “custom” were used; it was man-made and therefore nonessential. I had learned that Corinthian women were being given a local solution to a local problem, not applicable to the church at large. Honestly, these positions were held to simply because on the surface they seemed reasonable. It is easy to be an expert at a glance. Yet God’s Word deserves more than a casual glance. In this, 1 Corinthians 8:2 speaks volumes: “And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know.” 
This verse reminds me of another one of my little arguments against literally observing any of 1 Corinthians 11:1-16. Verse sixteen says, “But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God.” Here I understood that if anyone didn’t want to go along with the head-covering and was argumentative, Paul was saying, “Forget the whole thing.” While this understanding seems plausible at first glance, various observations indicate this isn’t correct.
* “Should anyone now object that her hair is enough, as being a natural covering, Paul says it is not, for it (the hair) is such a covering as requires another thing to be made use of for covering it.”
(John Calvin Commentaries, Translated from the Latin 1848)
A) First, it strikes me as unlikely that the apostle would argue forcefully for the headship veiling, bringing in creation facts and even angels, then say, “But never mind if you don’t like it.” This really doesn’t make much sense. 
B) If the phrase “we have no such custom” is non-negotiable, then the illogical theory may be inescapable. But the Greek word translated “such” is translated “other” in several English translations. While this may seem confusing, keep in mind prepositions are very flexible. Their context often determines their meaning. The phrase “we have no other custom” completely changes the meaning, but is translated thusly in the New International Version, Moffatt, Revised Standard Version, Williams, Good News Bible, Phillips and the Amplified Bible. This is not a textural matter but a translation challenge. The word is too flexible to hang a conclusion on. Early Christians didn’t argue and obeyed.
Let us now return to the strongest argument against the headship veiling. We are told that the Corinthian Christian women were modeling the inappropriate practice of Corinthian prostitutes. Fairly representative of such a view is a footnote in the Life Application Bible: “We need to read it in the context of the situation in Corinth…For a woman to uncover her head in public was a sign of loose morals…Paul was saying that in the Corinthian culture, Christian women should keep their hair long…” (New Living Translation, Life Application Bible, p. 1818) Did Paul really write a concession to Corinthian culture? Could the very one who wrote “Do not be conformed to this world…” (Romans 12:2) really have let the Corinthian customs press him into their mold? Even more troubling is the thought that if Paul wrote teachings in the Corinthian letter based not on God’s infallible Spirit, but on human judgments, what else is cultural? 1 
Both Appendix A and B cover aspects of the cultural arguments, and I would urge you to read both. Briefly I want to explain what the actual situation was in both Jewish and Greek cultures. This hopefully will answer the question: Does 1 Corinthians 11:1-16 reflect the culture of that time? 
Our discussion has centered on the head-covering for women. Yet equally innovative for a Jewish man was Paul’s inspired teaching in 11:4: “Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head.” Jewish men covered their heads when entering prayer settings (see Exodus 29:6; Leviticus 16:4) and still do. First Corinthians 11:4 isn’t traditional Jewish teaching. Greek prostitutes for sure didn’t cover their heads, this is true. But what isn’t said is that Greek women, as well as their men folk, in general didn’t cover their heads while praying. So the head-covering isn’t in conformity to Greek practice. This brought the Tyndale Commentary to conclude: “Christians adopted a distinctive practice of their own.” (Volume 7, p.152) Another quote is helpful: “(Paul’s) teaching in 1 Corinthians goes far beyond the cultural conditions affecting the Corinthian church. Indeed it was applicable also to other first century churches (1 Corinthians 11:16b) and to God’s people at any time. 2
Still, although all this was true, I could hardly believe that in all my Christian experience, no one had seen any of this. How could the truth be so obscure? 
What I discovered next truly surprised me. In a commentary dated 1916, I read: “To this day, the universal custom in Christian places of worship, of women being covered and men uncovered and the increasing revolt against the acknowledgment of the subordination of women to men, etc…” (Layman Commentary, 1916, p. 106) 
1 Various groups are willing to help us in our search. The Metropolitan Community Church suggests Paul’s prohibition of homosexuality was a similar reaction to the Corinthian temple prostitution cult.
2 For an excellent treatment of the Jewish and Grecian practices, see Expositor’s Bible Commentary, Volume 10, pp. 254-257)
Was the head-covering still common practice in 1916? Apparently so. In 1928, Charles Erdman’s Commentary contained these comments: “It is interesting to observe that while the habit of covering the head in public worship is but a trivial custom which obtained in the days of Paul, it is still almost universally observed among Christians. Its real meaning is little understood. Its true significance is almost forgotten. However, the important principle it once represented is everywhere questioned or rejected in the alleged interest of the rights and liberties of women.”
It is surprising to realize that the veiling has been removed so recently. In the end, the covering was quarantined to public worship. Yet John Calvin’s observations demonstrate this too was a recent deterioration: “…women should not go out in public with uncovered heads.” (Calvin’s Institutes, Book 4, Chapter 10, Section 29)* 
Even here we got tripped up into believing the veiling was properly suited to the church service alone. “After all,” I reasoned, “where do we pray and prophecy?” At church. What happened as we deepened our understanding of what constitutes true “church”? Is true “church” only that which happens on Sunday in the “house of God”? Little by little, it dawned on us that we were always members of the church and that anytime we shared Jesus and prayed, this was as much “having church” as any other time. Home Bible studies were surely church (see Acts 16:13). In the grocery store witnessing to searching souls was church. We would slip into church over and over using the head-covering like a convertible top on a rainy day. Up and down it would go until the foolishness of this finally settled in. 
Overlooked in all this was that our text doesn’t say it is just about praying or prophesying. The focus was more on the demonstration of God’s created order. “God-Christ-Man-Woman.” This doesn’t need to be demonstrated just in church. And, “because of the angels” (11:10) doesn’t seem to imply church settings only, unless angels only go to church and not to the home studies, or grocery store or the beach. Angels minister to us wherever we are. (See Hebrews 1:12; 13:2; Luke 22:43; 2 Kings 6:17)
Do you recall the tale of Gulliver’s travels? After a ship wreck, a solitary man is washed ashore on a strange island. He awakens to find himself tied down by hundreds of miniature ropes and surrounded by hundreds of miniature people. This, of course, is a fantastic fable, far-fetched in the extreme. Yet, this picture accurately illustrates the way I feel God dealt with us as He laid reason after reason over our minds, bringing us into conformity to His will. As in Gulliver’s story, at any time he could have lifted himself up, broke free of the Lilliputians’ constraints; so can any of us resist the Holy Spirit’s leading. In the case of the miniature Lilliputians, they were too small to control Gulliver, but in the Holy Spirit’s case, it isn’t that He isn’t able to forcibly tie us down, but that He is unwilling.
As you can see from this paper, there are specific, Scriptural, reasonable arguments that may be submitted in favor of the headship veiling. More important, however, is our personal willingness to submit to God’s inspired Word. Bible experts are everywhere offering their counsel. Yet there remains but one Wonderful Counselor: Jesus Christ our Lord. The Jews, expert as they were in God’s law, murdered the holy and just one. As it is written, “But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God for themselves…” (Luke 7:30a) I trust you will not make the same mistake. 
God bless you,
Don and Lauren Childs
John Calvin lived from 1509 to 1564.
Appendix A
Widely respected Bible teacher R. C. Sproul’s comments from the book, “Knowing Scripture”: “Some very subtle means of relativizing the text occur when we read into the text cultural considerations that ought not to be there. For example, with respect to the hair-covering issue in Corinth, numerous commentators on the Epistle point out that the local sign of the prostitute in Corinth was the uncovered head. Therefore, the argument runs, the reason why Paul wanted women to cover their heads was to avoid a scandalous appearance of Christian women in the external guise of prostitutes.
What is wrong with this kind of speculation? The basic problem here is that our reconstructed knowledge of first-century Corinth has led us to supply Paul with a rationale that is foreign to the one he gives himself. In a word, we are not only putting words into the apostle’s mouth, but we are ignoring the words that are there. If Paul merely told women in Corinth to cover their heads and have no rationale for such instruction, we would be strongly inclined to supply it via our cultural knowledge. In this case, however, Paul provides a rationale which is based on an appeal to creation not to the custom of Corinthian harlots. We must be careful not to let our zeal for knowledge of the culture obscure what is actually said. To subordinate Paul’s stated reason to our speculatively conceived reason is to slander the apostle and turn exegesis into eisegesis.
3. The creation ordinances are indicators of the transcultural principle. If any biblical principles transcend local customary limits, they are the appeals drawn from creation. Appeals to creation ordinances reflect stipulations a covenant God makes with man qua man. The laws of creation are not given to man as Hebrew or man as Christian or man as Corinthian, but are rooted in basic human responsibility to God. To set principles of creation aside as mere local custom is the worst kind of relativizing and dehistoricizing of the biblical content.”
(Knowing Scripture, p. 110-111; R. C. Sproul, professor of Systematic Theology and Apologetics at Reformed Theological Seminary.)
Appendix B
Are There Cultural Aspects of the Bible?
(and, thereby, Portions of Scripture Not Applicable for Today?) 
Gil Rugh 4-24-88
“As we approach the Scriptures and interpret it, we interpret it in a literal or normal way according to the rules of grammar in light of the historical setting in which it was given by God. We need to be very careful we don’t write-off portions of the Word saying, ‘That was cultural.’ Because everything in the Word of God was cultural…it was written within the culture within which it was given. So the cultural arguments simply become an excuse [for some] to reject whatever portion of the Word of God that does not fit with what (they and) the world are doing in this area today. The Word of God transcends culture. What is important here is that it is God giving these instructions. Some say, ‘Well, these portions simply reflect the cultural practices of that period of time.’ That is a denial of the inspiration of Scripture.” (Taken from: “Family Fitness: Equal But Different”; Biblical Discernment Ministries)
Titus 1:9 – “…holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.”

The Most Bizarre Conversation Ever With A Oneness Pentecostal! Viewer Discretion Advised

I`m still confused about the trinity doctrine.Are you saying that God was but He cloned Jesus from himself and used Jesus to create all things. But since it was cloned off of God , it was still God?Or maybe not cloned , but somehow made from God ?

LikeUnlike · · Unfollow PostFollow Post · 53 minutes ago

  • 50 of 67
    • Steve CurtisThat would be seperate drew

      36 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Drew Ayershe was 100% man and 100% God simultaneously

      36 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Drew Ayershow?

      35 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Steve CurtisSon on earth and God everywhere else

      35 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Steve CurtisThat is seperate

      35 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Drew AyersGod is not contained ‘spatially’…that is, God cannot be limited in space…

      35 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Steve CurtisI`m sayin , Jesus flesh was seperate from the spirit

      34 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Drew AyersHe literally became Man, but that body could not contain the vastness of God’s being and complexity…yet the scripture says, that he literally became man…

      34 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Drew Ayersif you mean His flesh was real human flesh and not some sort of God flesh, then you are correct…he came from Women, as a literal human…

      33 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Steve CurtisNow drew , you either have to have 2 or there wasn`t a God in heaven

      33 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Drew Ayersminus the man’s seed…God himself provided those chromosomes.

      33 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Drew AyersGod is the only God that is not contained spatially…so I don’t know what you mean…

      32 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Drew AyersDavid said that whereever he went or could possibly go, God was there…

      31 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Steve Curtisso there was no God , Jesus was the only God

      30 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Drew Ayersthere is no escaping His presence…however if the Son of God was nothing more than humanity, then John 3;13 could not be true…cuz the Son would be limited to spatial location…

      30 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Drew AyersJesus the Son is delcared as the true God in 1 John 5;20

      30 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Drew Ayersthe Father in John 17 and the H.S. in Acts 5

      30 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Drew Ayersone God existing as three persons i.e. Father, Son , H.S.

      29 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Drew Ayersyou have me for ten more minutes bro. …bedtime…

      29 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Steve CurtisSo God didn`t become flesh , he put chromosomes in Marys womb

      29 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Drew Ayersyes he did, that is how he became flesh…the Son is speaking to the Father in Hebrews 10 and states, “a body you have prepared for me”….

      28 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Drew AyersJohn 1;14, the Word ‘became’ flesh…

      27 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Steve CurtisWell if the son already exsisted , why did he have to go into a babys body?

      26 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Steve CurtisSo the son just went into a body?

      25 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Drew Ayershe became a fetus that grew and was born,  he became a human so as to be a sacrifice for our sins…He freely chose to do this, see Philippians 2;5-7

      24 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Drew Ayershe took on the form of a servant coming in the likeness of men…

      24 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Steve CurtisI didn`t know that just chromosomes would fertilize a womans egg.

      24 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Drew Ayerswell what I mean is that what the man naturally would contribute was contributed by God…there was no semen in the equation, unless of course , you are mormon…

      22 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Drew AyersMary was  a virgin when she birthed Jesus…

      21 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Steve Curtiswell a man produces semen, but you said God put the same thing there

      21 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Drew AyersMary’s conception was miraculous

      21 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Drew Ayersnot natural, i.e. semen…

      21 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Drew Ayerssemen is sperm mixed in the cowpers gland with a urine type secretion forming semen and I’m sure that God being Spirit does not have male genitals…

      20 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Steve CurtisBut you said what a man contributes , God did

      19 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Drew AyersI speaking biologically, not sexually…do you believe God had literal sex with Mary?

      17 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Drew AyersJesus did not have a Human FAther…

      14 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Drew AyersHis conception was miraculous…

      14 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Drew Ayersand Martin Luther King Jr. did not believe in the virgin birth…

      14 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Drew Ayersnor the Trinity…

      13 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Steve CurtisDrew , the same way he put the whatever you said in her , he could put the same semen in her . Cause I`m sure he had to create the chromosomes

      13 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Drew AyersJesus had all His chromosomes…

      13 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Drew Ayerssemen comes from a male genital…do you think God had/has male genitals?

      12 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Steve CurtisI`m saying that God put created semen in Mary. you say he put chromosomes

      12 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Drew Ayerssemen is the product of copulation ( sex ) and is specific to human sexual intercourse.  Semen is the vehicle that carries the sperm to the female egg.  Thousands of the sperm, perhaps millions are killed by the time a single sperm makes it to the egg.  God caused Mary to conceive, not through the natural means of copulation, ejaculatin via orgasm, etc.   Her conception was miraculous therefore not natural…

      11 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Drew Ayersbehind what we think is natural among us humans is God in His sovereignty creating each conception via His will…none of us are accidents…so when it came to Jesus’ conception he could skip all the natural methods of sex…he provided the necessary building blocks for the fetus to ‘become’…

      8 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Steve Curtis

      Drew , all that you have explained to me tonight  is the most twisted  unbelievable , confusing doctrine I have ever heard. It doesn`t make sense . They are 3 , but inseperable. But yet they were seperate, flesh and spirit. And for the son …to pre exsist but yet become flesh , but in reality he did not become flesh , because you said that God created chromosomes in Marys womb and a body was made , in which the son some how got into the body .This is really weird. Is there any body with me?See More
      8 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Drew AyersSteve, I’m scratching my head here because the mystery of the incarnation is for the Oneness and trinitarian alike…We’ve not talked about God and how he exists, I’ve been trying my best to convince you that God and Mary didn’t get it on…so who is twisted?

      6 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Drew Ayerstell me how God had sex with Mary?

      5 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Drew Ayersdo you believe in the virgin Birth?

      4 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Steve Curtis

      Drew listen to yourself . If he was already a son , why would God have to create building blocks for a fetus , when you said the son became flesh . If he already exsisted , how could he become flesh , when you have already claimed that God …Put chromosomes in Mary womb. That would n`t be , becoming flesh , that would be God creating a body and the pre exsisting son living in the body. But if that happened  ( which it didn`t ) that would be no suffering for us , a spirit in a body is no suffering for the spirit.See More
      2 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
    • Drew Ayersbefore I move further, I must know if you accept the virgin birth?

      about a minute ago · LikeUnlike
    •  True conception , God meant what he said , You shall conceive. So God created semen ( in which you dont think God has the Power to do ) and he put it in Mary`s womb and she conceived a baby. Just like God said. You said God put Chromosomes in her , why would you not believe he could put semen in her.? but thats the way Jesus came into exsistence.

      6 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
      • Steve CurtisThats why Jesus was called the only begotten son , Fro the Fathers seed. or he could not have been begotten.

        4 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
      • Steve CurtisShe was still a virgin , because she had never had sex with no man.

        4 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
      • Drew AyersLOL!  Steve you are killing me…are you serious?  Have you ever had Biology classes?

        2 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
      • Drew AyersHow did he get that ‘semen’ up there?

        2 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
      • Drew Ayersman, I gotta go to bed, but just remember, the problem of the incarnation, is for both Oneness and Trinitarians…

        about a minute ago · LikeUnlike
      • Drew Ayers‎….LOL and where did the Father get his semen from?….

        a few seconds ago · LikeUnlike
      • Drew AyersSteve believes that the Father put literal semen in Mary!  Someone help us!…

        2 seconds ago · LikeUnlike
      • Drew , how did he get the chromosomes up there.

        14 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
        • Steve CurtisHow can you limit God on what he said he would do .

          13 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
        • Steve CurtisWhy do you think God couldn`t create semen, he created the whole man , he couldn`t create semen? com on drew.

          12 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
        • Steve CurtisDrew , you said that God put chromosomes in her womb . But you cant believe he could create saemen and put it in her.

          11 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
        • Drew Ayersthe same way the basic building block of life are.  God’s sovereignty…Steve the Bible doesn’t say, but semen is specific to the male species….

          10 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
        • Steve CurtisYes , I have studied biology and the blood and many things. Thats why I know what Im talking about.

          10 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
        • Drew AyersMan I can’t tell…explain to me the cowpers gland, the epidydomous tubes, testes etc…all of which involves NATURAL conception…Mary’s conception was miraculous not natural….not at all….

          8 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
        • Steve CurtisSo drew , you dont believe that the great God that created all things, could not create male semen and put it in marys womb , or better yet , just speak it in her womb.

          7 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
        • Steve CurtisGod cant create semen drew.?

          7 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
        • Drew AyersSteve you aren’t getting it man, if God did not need a male genital, then He didn’t need semen…the two go hand and hand…

          6 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
        • Steve CurtisThe miraculous conception was that she became pregnant while being a virgin.

          4 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
        • Steve CurtisBut you need the seed to fertilize the egg drew, your the one not getting it.

          3 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
        • Drew Ayersand pregnant by non-natural means…good nite bro…

          2 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
        • Steve CurtisDrew , you are limiting God big time in saying he couldn`t create semen. Wow!!!!!!

          2 minutes ago · LikeUnlike
        • Drew AyersSteve, He could have done anything, including having literal sex with her like the Mormons say, but He didn’t because He is God, He could just fertalize the egg without  a human spermata!  Dust off that ole biology book!

          a few seconds ago · LikeUnlike
        • Steve CurtisDrew , God cant speak seed in a womans womb? Talk about putting limitations on a big God.

          a few seconds ago · LikeUnlike
        • Drew Ayers good nite bro…can’t wait to see how the brothers react to this one…

2012 is Good!

I have new ministry opportunities this year thus far.  I have been invited to be a contributing writer for an apologetics ministry.  This is a great honour to say the least.  Also, the Oneness vs. Trinity discussions forum may have a conference in Montgomery Ala. this May in which I hope to be able to present the doctrine of the Trinity in a formal debate.  That seems to be up in the air as of now.   Also, spoke with a gentlemen today that informed me of the possibility of me debating a oneness Pentecostal in England on a TV program there, if I were able to come visit.  Wow, what to do?  It is a blessing to see my efforts from years ago in my previous debates coming to fruition today.  I thank God for the internet, seeing how He can use this to His honour and glory during this time.  On another note, work has certainly improved!  We have received income for eight consecutive weeks now.  The home front is doing good as well.  We are trekking through 2 Chronicles as a family.  I’ve been studying text types and textual criticism.  It is also nice to have my books in here with me as opposed to having all of them in the office.  Hopefully I’ll have some new shelving installed in a couple of months.  Also trying to increase my knowledge with Koine Greek, seeing that I slacked for a few months.  That is a no no when studying a language.  So what have you been doing?

Miscellaneous Happenings

Hello blogger friends, been some time since blogging…I’ve joined a Oneness and Trinitarian discussion forum and that has been keeping me busy.  I have found time to bring my library inside from my office, see the photos below.  I also have completed our tile shower project and will begin enjoying bathing inside!  Also Joanna is re-arranging my office tomorrow and if you look carefully at the photo below you’ll see that I’ve added some 2×4′s to my ceiling joist’s so as to create a storage system for my camping gear.  Work is going very well and I hope to be able to participate in a debate on the doctrine of the Trinity next May in Montgomery Alabama.

Statement Of Faith

Due to heresies and multiple opinions concerning the Christian scriptures and faith I will be posting a statement of faith so you can see where I jive with your paradigm!  So far I have thought of the biggies such as: ‘who is God?’, who is Jesus?, who is the Holy Spirit?, who is man?, salvation, judgment, followed by Christs’ second coming, gifts of the Spirit, Church leadership, etc.

When I read a statement of faith I usually grow bored quickly by the lengthy and wordy statements so I will try to be very concise.  I could probably write a book on all of what I believe the Bible to say but I will spare you. :)

What topics would you include in a statement of faith?

Laborious Conversation To Nowhere…Sort Of

I had an interesting exchange with some Oneness Pentecostals on Oneness and Trinity discussions forum.  The conversation was polite and respectful.  I appreciate the people on this forum in that aspect.  However the conversation was very circular.  I got the sense that they thought that maybe I was taking them somewhere that they didn’t want to go.  During this conversation my main goal was to identify a ‘speaker’ and the person to whom the ‘speaker’ was speaking.  Hebrews chapter 1;6 clearly identifies the speaker and the recipient and even declares when the speaking took place.  You would think that we could agree on this very first point.  Nope, it didn’t happen and so you can imagine that verses 8-13 of this chapter ( which so wonderfully exalts the Son of God and demonstrates His supremacy to that of angels ) was also a no go.  You see, the subject of the Son of God preexisting His birth in Bethlehem is a major weakness in Oneness theology.  Below is the exchange if you want to read through it…..

    Gods own Son – God;   or son because the son of Mans flesh was in relationship with the Father Jesus ? What does the Bible say ?
      • Drew Ayerswhat exactly are you asking?

        4 hours ago ·
      • Duncan MacgregorJohn 9:35 – 38. seals it for me…..Gods Own Son – God. Flesh doesnot recieve Worship and be declared YHVH/Adonai…..Nor would the blindman healed and thrown out of the Synagogue, respond to Jesus Question…” Do you believe in the Son Of God” ? and then ask “who is….He Lord ?……..if all it meant,  was a man in relationship with God…….for this Blindman had been in relationship with God…a son of Abraham – a son therefore of God………

        4 hours ago ·
      • Duncan MacgregorSorry Drew….Oneness believe that the Term Son of God..for Jesus means nothing more than a man in relationship with God…only. others believe the term Son of God – means literraly Gods own Son.

        4 hours ago ·
      • Duncan MacgregorWhat does the Bible say ?

        4 hours ago ·
      • Drew AyersWell I’m a well informed Trinitarian and I believe scripture indicates that Jesus if fully human and fully God simultaneously.  John 1;1 indicates that the ‘word’ (which is the son) is deity.  Oneness would also believe that Jesus is God but they mean that he is God the Father manifested in the flesh.  Therefore they dismiss the notion that the Son of God is diety without equivocation thus son of God are two people…the Father=deity and the son of man=human nature.  What settles this is the idea of actual pre-existence of the son before Bethlehem.  Hebrew 1 is a good place to start….what do you think?

        4 hours ago ·  ·  1Loading…
      • Drew Ayersthe question is, “was the ‘Word’ personal or impersonal in John1;1

        3 hours ago ·
      • Duncan Macgregor I think what I think is on Record daily here drew..LOL…. hebrew 1:10….has the Father declare over His Son…: “You YHVH laid the foundations of the earth, The heavens are the work of Your …”hands”..[not logos]. The “Word” is a Title defining the tenoire of His ministry – the Prophet moses spoke of…The revelator – The wisdom of God – the proclaimer of Gods truth revealed – the Rabbi – the Master – the Teacher – Gods Spokes person….etc.. A Title….not literal thought in Gods head before Mat 1:25…referenced again in Rev 19:13 amongst many Titles the Son of God has…. They want “The word” to be litteral…..but not Jesus actually – literally being a “Lamb”…………apparently – though the greek does specify litterally a four legged creature with a fluffy tail…

        3 hours ago ·
      • Quartus HendersonThe term Son of God generally speaks of the divine nature of Jesus. He is the “Son of God ” because he according to Luke 1:35 was conceived by the Spirit of God. However, the term sees both his humanity and deity because God was manifest himself in flesh.

        3 hours ago via mobile ·
      • Drew AyersDid this “Son of God” pre-exist His birth in Bethlehem?

        3 hours ago ·
      • Quartus HendersonThe “Son” was begotten in time.

        3 hours ago via mobile ·
      • Drew Ayersso the ‘son’ mentioned in Hebrews 1 really wan’t the ‘one’ that laid the foundations of the earth?

        3 hours ago ·
      • Non-Trinitarian Oneness PentecostalGod is not a Son, that concept is not Biblical.

        3 hours ago via mobile ·
      • Duncan MacgregorExcept the Father declares…over His Son – Heb 1:10…..The Holy Spirit affirms this truth in Col 1:15-19……John the Baptist [John 1:30] who was older than Jesus testifies that Jesus was “Before him”…….and Jesus Himself in John 8:58 declares as the Father declared over Him, that He was/is a person ..YHVH. a Living being – prior to Mat 1:25. Now the Testimony of any one of the Godhead would be reliable and Truth…but the testimony of All – The Father – the Son and The Holy spirit – leaves no doubt at all on the matter. Unless you have a doctrine elevated Higher than Gods Etrenal word….that is, of course.

        3 hours ago ·  ·  1Loading…
      • Christian ApologeticsDrew Ayers, Would you want to discuss this subject. Just the two of us at the one on one discussion, This is Ray Haruzi

        3 hours ago ·  ·  1Loading…
      • Drew Ayerswhen, cuz the discussion could become lengthy and I stinketh and need a bath…:)

        3 hours ago ·
      • Quartus HendersonAre you now asking the same question a different way? Hebrews show that the Son was begotten and brought into creation as I stated earlier Luke 1:35

        3 hours ago ·
      • Duncan MacgregorSon of Man was begotten in time – but Son of God was not. The Son of God was “Sent” of his father – coming in the likeness of sinful flesh…Rom 8;3…..Gods Own Son…Rom 8:32.

        3 hours ago ·
      • Christian ApologeticsNo rush, we can start at anytime

        3 hours ago ·
      • Christian ApologeticsThere are guide lines

        3 hours ago ·
      • Drew Ayersoh boy… guidelines?  does this mean we can’t call each other names?

        3 hours ago ·
      • Christian ApologeticsLOl. Im affraid so!

        3 hours ago ·
      • Christian ApologeticsI think it will be beneficial this way..

        3 hours ago ·
      • Drew Ayersit very well could…I’ll check back later and see how this topic is going and let you know …

        3 hours ago ·
      • Christian Apologeticssure, I need to review the  guide lines and pass it to you. bassically just a written debate format. How many words for required for each responds and how long will it takes to post. Its not a one sitting type debate but a n individual can take up to two days to really get their response prepared before posting…

        3 hours ago ·
      • Duncan Macgregor‎@Qaurtas… Col 1:16…./”For by …”Him”..ALL things were created….” He was a “Him” before Time was concieved - before their was a Beginning – for He Created both “Time” and “beginning” with The father and the Holy Spirit. What do we call the realm where Time does not exist in the physical Realm ?…………The Eternal Ralm - ‘Outside of Time’..not ‘subject to Time’…not “governed by Time’…..Past – Present -Future – knowing no dominion or law of Time. What do we call this other realm – outside of Time ?……..The eternal Realm.

        3 hours ago ·
      • Drew AyersI’m really beginning to like the way you talk Duncan.

        3 hours ago ·  ·  1Loading…
      • Quartus Henderson‎@Duncan as I stated earlier the term Son of God speaks of both humanity and Deity. When dealing with Jesus one must reconcile when the scriptures speak of his humanity/flesh or deity/spirit. He did exist before time as spirit. However the “Son” was born of a virgin in time. Yes Jesus pre-existed because the deity of Jesus is the Father Himself.

        3 hours ago ·
      • Steve CurtisDuncan, you confuse too many people with your much talking. Just put it in plain terms so people can understand.Here it is , God has always been one God , he never needed any help.Then , he spoke to Maqry and God Fathered a Son and lived in the body showing the world who he was.

        3 hours ago ·
      • Duncan MacgregorThe  english Translation is always in the singular…”God”. Yet NOT in Hebrew where the Term is not Singular – but The plurality and Unity of Elohim…….Of One -  plurality and Unity is One.”echad” Reference for clarification…Genesis 2:24….”Two shall become One flesh…… a plurality of Unity creating “One”. One God numericaly requires not the plural  verb for One “echad” that is associated with “El”….[God].. but reqiures the other Verb the Hebrews use for “One” – “yachid”[numerically One - mathmatically One - where plurality and unity cannot exist.......WHICH IS NEVER USED...in association with God.......... You have no yachid as you claim  Steve.....Look at the Shema Deut 6:4 - Three words of God are in the Plurality of Unity - followed NOT by "Yachid" [absoloute One]…but with the verb “Echad”. However The English will always translate Lord or God in its singular…which doesnot exist in the Hebrew.

        2 hours ago ·
      • Duncan MacgregorI cannot find any Scvripture that declares The fathers Name is Jesus Qaurtas. Jesus never taught that – proclaimed that – prayed that – nor did the early Church ever reference what you claim. It doesnot exist in Scripture…that the Fathers Name is Jesus. There was a “Him” a living being – before creation with God – before the Beginning – for “He”…was in the Beginning – and by Him all things were created in heaven and earth – Col 1:16…and Through “Him”…the universe was created – Heb 1:3….and this Co creator was a “Son” and an ” Heir” to His Father. Now that is Scripture.

        2 hours ago ·  ·  2Loading…
      • Drew AyersIf the Son did not exist before Bethlehem then who was the Father speaking to in Hebrews 1 where it is declared that the ‘Son’ laid the foundation of the earth?…and who called him God according to Hebrews 1?

        2 hours ago ·  ·  1Loading…
      • Quartus Henderson‎@ Duncan I never mentioned this however I will address it. John 17:26 Jesus said he “have declared unto them thy name” The ONLY name Jesus declared was Jesus and Jesus was the only name the disciples/apostles declared!

        2 hours ago ·
      • Drew Ayersso what about Hebrew 1 and Colossians 1 that Duncan has brought up?  I would be most interested to learn how you understand these verses…

        2 hours ago ·
      • Quartus Henderson‎@Drew I already addressed it in a previous post.

        2 hours ago ·
      • Drew Ayers‎@ Quartus you say, ” Hebrews show that the Son was begotten and brought into creation “  if the ‘son was ‘begotten’ and brought (made) into creation then when did this exactly happen?

        2 hours ago ·
      • Quartus HendersonWhen the fulness of time was come Gal 4:4

        2 hours ago ·
      • Duncan MacgregorNom – you have been trained for doctrinal reasons to interpet that loose misinterpeted thread…Qaurtas….The fathers name is YHVH..Ex 3…that the Son shares with His Father……list all YHWY…preceeding the Likes of Shalom – jireh - nissi - Tsideneku - and you will see the full ministry of Jesus revealed….”Who revealed His Fathers Name”… It is YHVH…list them all – you see Jesus in action in the Gospel. What it is NOT……..is declaring that the Sons Name Jesus is The Fathers name. The Son was/is YHVH…everytime you say the “Lord” Jesus Christ…you affirm that the Son was a YHVH – First – Became a Man – jsecond -Jesus - and as required for the Messiah [Christ] – was Both fully Man and God.God/Man. Qautas – who is The Lord Jesus Christs… Head ?..Ref 1 Cor 11:3

        2 hours ago ·
      • Christian ApologeticsDrew and Duncan, let me ask you both a question> Read Heb 1:5 and tell me if this is not a recitation of the prophetic passage from  the OT. Heb 1:5  For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

        2 hours ago ·
      • Drew Ayerswhen exactly was that ‘fulness of time’?  When did this ‘son’ begin to exist?

        2 hours ago ·
      • Drew Ayersyes Ray this was prophetically spoken and was further explained here in Hebrews 1.

        2 hours ago ·
      • Duncan MacgregorHave you forgotten Jesus declaration in John 17:5 – Qaurtas ? …….Worth the read.

        2 hours ago ·
      • Drew AyersDuncan I wonder if we could stay on Hebrews 1 with him for now?  I’d like to know what he thinks about the origination of the Son?

        2 hours ago ·  ·  1Loading…
      • Christian ApologeticsDosent these phrases, ” I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?” and “I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?” written in future anticipation?

        2 hours ago ·
      • Drew Ayersit could be but I would like to look at the specifics of what was said to the ‘son’ and what is attributed the the ‘son’…those phrases are very interesting indeed, while we are waiting were they not spoken to someone in the Old Testament?  Bible Trivia here, very interesting to who.

        2 hours ago ·
      • Christian ApologeticsIf the son existed before the incarnation , why oes the passage speaks of the son in future tense as if he didnt existed prior to verse 6?

        2 hours ago ·
      • Drew Ayersfirst I’m wanting to determine “IF” the ‘Son’ existed before the incarnation according to Hebrew 1: 8-13

        2 hours ago ·
      • Quartus HendersonWhen dealing with Jesus one must reconcile when the scriptures speak of his humanity/flesh or deity/spirit. The head of Christ/humanity/flesh is God. @ Drew the fulness of time was in Luke 1:35;Matt 1:21

        2 hours ago ·
      • Christian ApologeticsWould it make sense to derive understanding from passages before verse 8?

        2 hours ago ·
      • Drew AyersOkay, so you would agree that the “son’ did NOT lay the foundations of the earth but instead it was the ‘Father’?

        2 hours ago ·
      • Drew AyersYes it very well could but if your presupposition is that the son did NOT exist before the incarnation then you will interpret those verse in light of that pressuposition and if you hold to my presuposition then you will interpret those passages accordingly…:)

        2 hours ago ·
      • Quartus HendersonDrew and Duncan you both are asking the same question which I already answered. The “Son” is both human and divine. If we say the Son pre-existed then it is understood that the deity of Jesus pre-existed which was/is the Spirit of God

        2 hours ago ·  ·  1Loading…
      • Drew Ayerswe have a case here Quartus where the divine is speaking to the human…would you agree that is the case here in Hebrews1 ?

        2 hours ago ·
      • Quartus Hendersonno

        2 hours ago ·
      • Drew Ayerswho speaks to the son then in verse 8?  Is this ‘deity’ speaking to the son or is this the son speaking to the son?

        2 hours ago ·
      • Christian ApologeticsSciptures  indicate that there was only one who created the world. In “Rev 4: 1 You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being. Lamb is not given a recognition for being the creator but a redeemer only. Rev 5:9 Scripture seems to indicate that God alone create all things.

        2 hours ago ·
      • Drew Ayersyes God alone.  There is only one God…

        2 hours ago ·
      • Christian ApologeticsIf the son is the Creator then why he is excluded from the recognition in Rev 4:1.?

        2 hours ago ·
      • Christian ApologeticsOk, gotta go. Church starting in few minutes..

        2 hours ago ·
      • Drew Ayersarguments from silence proves nothing…but right now I’m in Hebrews 1

        2 hours ago ·
      • Drew AyersOkay Ray, nice talking to ya, did you solve the Bible Trivia?

        2 hours ago ·
      • Christian ApologeticsI know the subject is in Hebrew, what Im saying is this, you are suggestin that son existed prior to the incarnation in Hebre 1:8-13 but in Hebrew 1:5-6, the writer speaks of the son only in future tense. Do you think the writer mis quoted the passages in verse 5 or do we force an assumption of pre-existent divine being along side another God?

        2 hours ago ·
      • Drew AyersRay see 1 Chronicles 17;13…trivia answer

        2 hours ago ·
      • Christian ApologeticsI will later, service starts in few minutes…

        2 hours ago ·
      • Drew AyersI just want to know from the other brother, in His opinion, who is speaking to whom in verse 8?

        2 hours ago ·
      • Drew Ayersokay, don’t be late on our account.:)

        2 hours ago ·
      • Duncan MacgregorYour speaking in the physical Realm – not the “Eternal Realm” as you should.. “Today if you hear his voice – do not harden your hearts as your forefathers did….” was not a Literal 24 hrs…..meant. The blood of Jesus was shed on a single day 14 day of the third month – 3 B.C. – but through the Eternal Spirit – before the foundations of the earth – The Lamb was slain and His blood knows no Time in regard of its cleansing…… The Eternal realm, though referencing for our sakes physical measurements to relate to….is neither bound by them nor governed – nor subject to Time past - Present – Future – ……but will reference what we can understand by using physical measurements to define both meaning and immediantcy. . With regard the Scripture you Qoute…..it is both of Eternal realm—before Time and Physical realm – When the Pre-existant Son of God – Sent of His Father – was birthed through Mary – to become a Son of Man.

        2 hours ago ·
      • Quartus HendersonDrew The Father was speaking of things to come=The incarnation

        2 hours ago ·
      • Duncan MacgregorOver -tired – God bless you all…;0

        2 hours ago ·
      • Christian Apologetics Ok, one more then I will run. Again, this scriptures Drew Ayers, have a sense of future anticipation of the son. They dont give any glue or hints of the son existed then.  They speak of the Son in future tense. 1Ch 17:11  And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 1Ch 17:12  He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 1Ch 17:13  I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 1Ch 17:14  But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.

        2 hours ago ·
      • Drew Ayersand who did he speak these things to?

        2 hours ago ·
      • William VincentDuncan Macgregor- I find it interesting that you seem to take issue with Oneness indicating the Jesus was the Father, yet you here insinuate that God’s on Son was in fact God. The statement itself seems illogical.

        2 hours ago ·
      • Drew Ayersit seems that the Father says so William…verse9 Hebrews 1.  What am I missing?

        2 hours ago ·
      • Quartus Henderson‎@ Drew vs 1 of Hebrews 1 answers that

        2 hours ago ·
      • Drew Ayerssorry that should have been  verse8

        2 hours ago ·
      • Drew Ayersso is Deity speaking to the human in verse 8-13?

        2 hours ago ·
      • Duncan MacgregorThe “Head “of the Lord Jesus Christ, Lord either meaning Adonai God – or YHVY – God…the Head of Christ is indeed an other – William… 1 Cor 11:3 – could not put it more simply.

        2 hours ago ·
      • Drew Ayers‎@ Quartus thats good, through whom He made the worlds…

        2 hours ago ·
      • Drew Ayerssounds like verse 10 ….

        2 hours ago ·
      • Drew Ayersso the deity says to the human, You LORD laid the foundations of the earth?

        about an hour ago ·
      • Duncan MacgregorJohn 17:5…Qaurtas ?

        about an hour ago ·
      • Drew Ayersdo I understand you correctly?

        about an hour ago ·
      • Quartus Henderson‎@ Drew are you assuming that this is a conversation taking place

        about an hour ago ·
      • William VincentDuncan Macgregor- I am not sure 1 Cor 11:3 works very well for you point. Not unless you are willing to include man and woman into the Deity. For the same thing said of God and Christ is said of Christ and man as well as man and woman. This does not answer the illogical statement that God is his own Son.

        about an hour ago ·
      • Drew AyersI’m not assuming anything, just understanding that someone referred to as “He” we are told “says” and this “saying” takes place while bringing the firstborn into the world…see verse 6

        about an hour ago ·
      • Drew Ayersall that follows is what was said by the “He” to the “Son”…

        about an hour ago ·
      • William VincentDrew Ayers- If you will read from the beginning verses, it plainly tells you that the Son inherited the Fathers person and character. He is called God because he is one with the Father, this is exactly how Jesus explains the situation in John 10.

        about an hour ago ·
      • Drew Ayersyep, He is the Grk. Character of God verse 3′s “express”.  The express image of His being….this has no bearing of the fact that someone called “He” says to the “Son”.  Who is the “He”?  Deity?  Who is the “Son” referred to here?  Humanity?

        about an hour ago ·
      • Drew Ayerswhen does this conversation take place?

        about an hour ago ·
      • Quartus Henderson‎@ Drew in vs 6 when he (God/Spirit) bringeth in the first begotten (Son)into the world. As I stated before Luke 1:35

        about an hour ago ·
      • Drew Ayersso the Spirit spoke to the infant Son..”Your throne, O God, is forever and ever:……Therefore God, Your God has anointed you…….You LORD in the beginning laid the foundations of the earth…………?  Do I understand you correctly?

        about an hour ago ·
      • Quartus HendersonAgain you are assuming this is a conversation which I never said.

        about an hour ago ·
      • Drew Ayerssomeone speaks do they not?

        about an hour ago ·
      • Quartus HendersonVs 1 answers that God spoke unto the fathers by the prophets. This is a prophecy

        about an hour ago ·
      • Drew Ayersverse 6 says that “He” says….

        about an hour ago ·
      • Drew AyersYou’ve already said that this was said at Luke 1;35

        about an hour ago ·
      • Drew AyersDid “He” the deity really “say”?

        about an hour ago ·
      • Quartus HendersonMany verses say “and God said” whats the difference

        about an hour ago ·
      • Quartus HendersonNo you asked about the fulness of time when I responded in reference to Luke 1:35

        about an hour ago ·
      • Drew Ayersthe text here in Hebrew 1 verse 6 says that a “He” says…..

        about an hour ago ·
      • Drew AyersOkay, then “when” did the “He” say this to the “Son”?  verse 6 says, when “He” brings the firstborn into the world.  Do you agree?

        about an hour ago ·
      • Quartus HendersonI dont understand your question

        about an hour ago ·
      • Drew AyersWhen did the “He” say to the “Son”?  specifically when did the “He” mentioned in verse six “say”?

        about an hour ago ·
      • Quartus Henderson‎@Drew again this is a prophecy vs 1 answers the God spoke to the fathers by the prophets. This is a quote from Psalms 89:27

        about an hour ago ·
      • Quartus HendersonThis is NOT a conversation between “persons”

        about an hour ago ·
      • Drew Ayersyet verse six says that the “He” says this was said “when He again brings the firstborn into the world.  Do you not agree with verse six?  It plainly without adumbration says that this was said when bringing the firstborn into the world.

        about an hour ago ·
      • Drew Ayersdid the Son exist when “He” was bringing Him into the world?

        about an hour ago ·
      • Drew Ayersverse 8, but to the Son, He says:

        about an hour ago ·
      • Drew Ayersall that follows is what was said to the Son, and this took place, or ‘was said’ while bringing the firtborn into the world.  Seems rather clear.

        about an hour ago ·
      • Quartus Henderson‎@Drew you asre asking the same questions which I answered already.

        about an hour ago ·
      • Drew AyersWhat is most important is what was said to the Son, the context is proving Jesus’ supremacy over that of Angels because no Angel EVER had any of the attributes as that of Jesus.  However, the specific things said to Him are amazing.  For instance, to the Son it is said that He laid the foundations of the earth.  If He didn’t exist until Bethlehem then there is no way that this is true.

        about an hour ago ·
      • Drew AyersI don’ recall you clearly answering these question.  very simple then, 1.) Who is the He in verse six?  would you agree the Father? 2.) Who is the Son mentioned in verse 8-13? would He be the human?

        about an hour ago ·
      • Drew AyersNot trying to be difficult just want to understand you here.  Please be patient with me.:)

        about an hour ago ·
      • Quartus HendersonI answered this above twice I believe. Jesus is both humanity/man/flesh and deity/divine/spirit. Understanding that He laid the foundations of the earth is simple when we understand that the deity of Jesus which is the spirit of God himself did the creating not the humanity of Jesus.

        about an hour ago ·
      • Drew AyersGood talking to ya Quartus.  If you wanna follow up visit me over at drews2centsforyoublog.  Or maybe we’ll meet here again.

        about an hour ago ·
      • Drew AyersSorry, you caught me walking out the door.  Very good answer.  So deity verse six says to the son…..do you not believe the Son is humanity?  Where in Oneness theology is the Son God the Son?

        about an hour ago ·
      • Drew AyersI thought the Son of God are two people i.e. deity=father and son=humanity

        about an hour ago ·
      • Drew Ayershave I understood David Bernard wrong?  Robert Sabin and all the great minds of Oneness theologians?

        about an hour ago ·
      • William VincentDrew Ayers – as to the when – it clearly says “when he brings the Son into the world” but as to saying this is a conversation, I am not sure this qualifies.

        about an hour ago ·
      • Drew Ayersthanks William, but verse six says that when the “when” happens the “says” happens…………

        about an hour ago ·
      • William VincentAs far as the “he” it is very possible that this is referring to David who wrote the psalm that is quoted.

        about an hour ago ·
      • Drew Ayersso you are saying that Hebrew 1 is a defense to proving that David was not an angel?  Of course you wouldn’t, the context is speaking of Jesus, the Son of God.  Is it not?

        about an hour ago ·
      • William VincentI think it’s obvious that’s not what I am saying. Is is also obvious that David wrote these psalms. It is a logical possibility. WHO said it, really has no bearing on WHAT was said.

        about an hour ago ·
      • Drew Ayersany text previously written could now be applied specifically as referring to the son of David, Jesus.  Isn’t this the context?  Jesus is preeminent.  Greater than Angels.

        about an hour ago ·
      • Drew Ayersyep, verse 9 identifies the ‘He’ speaking.  “He” is called God.  Only God could be called God…

        about an hour ago ·
      • Drew Ayersso deity is attributing creation to the Son and Paul is using this as proof that Jesus is greater than the Angels…

        58 minutes ago ·
      • William VincentAs to the “when” there is no evidence of a conversation. It is clear that the writer is quoting scriptures from the psalms. And it, again, plainly says that “when he brings the firstborn into the world.” This is the only time borne out by this text.

        58 minutes ago ·
      • Drew Ayersokay, who is the firstborn then?  and when was He brought into the world?

        57 minutes ago ·
      • William VincentYou are making many unfounded assumptions when viewing these verses. There is nothing that demands a conversation other than you insisting that it is there. This is an inspired author using passages from the Old Testament to prove that Christ is preeminent.

        53 minutes ago ·
      • Drew AyersI’m assuming nothing, only repeating the text, it says a “He” says (coversation) to the “Son”.  That we should agree upon because the text plainly says so.

        51 minutes ago ·
      • Drew Ayersand where did Quartus get off to?:)

        50 minutes ago ·
      • Drew Ayersby the way it is obvious that these Old testament passages are now being applied to the Son…

        49 minutes ago ·
      • Drew Ayerswell William Quartus it has been a pleasure getting to know ya

        45 minutes ago ·
      • Drew Ayerswork in the morning….and William if you ever come to North Florida look me up.

        45 minutes ago ·
      • Drew AyersGood night and God bless.

        44 minutes ago ·
      • William VincentAlso, Paul did not write hebrews ;)

        42 minutes ago ·
      • Drew AyersI think he did, but that too is debatable…doesn’t really matter…still inspired…

        41 minutes ago ·
      • William VincentThe firstborn is Christ. And, he was brought into the world when he was first born :)

        41 minutes ago ·
      • Drew Ayersdid the “He” really “say” to the “firstborn”?

        39 minutes ago ·
      • Drew Ayersand did this infant hear what was said?

        39 minutes ago ·
      • Drew Ayersor are these texts not to be taken literally? and if not why not?

        38 minutes ago ·
      • Drew Ayersand did this infant really lay the foundations of the earth?

        37 minutes ago ·
      • Drew Ayerswell gotta go, thanks for the good conversation…

        35 minutes ago ·

    Aorist Participle

    Today I woke up to the Facebook forum Oneness Trinity debate.  A discussion was started by my Oneness Pentecostal friend Ray Haruzi.  He brought up Mark 16;16 and asked if Baptism is not necessary for salvation then why is ‘believe’ and ‘baptism’ both a Aorist Participle which would suggest that salvation comes after the two are accomplished.  So, I began revisiting the Aorist study via grabbing Dan Wallace’s ‘Greek Grammar Beyond The Basics’.  It didn’t take long to find out that this is not as cut and dry grammatically as one would think.  Specifically Wallace states,

    “….This text may illustrate another point about conditions.  As you recall, the two conditions in the protasis do not necessarily bear the same relation to the apodosis.  One might be cause, the other might be ground or evidence.  If that is the case here,  “If you believe” is the cause and the fulfillment of the apodosis depends on it,  “and are baptized” is the evidence of belief and the apodosis does not depend on it for fulfillment.  This would explain the following sentence.  “The one who does not believe shall be condemned.” p. 688

    While this is an enormous undertaking to understand all of this it would be much more of an undertaking to lay out all of the variables and parameters, I for one really am not qualified at this point in my studies of Koine Greek.  So google Dan Wallace on Mark 16;16, participles, and Aorist tenses, and enjoy!

    I did benefit from the challenge however.  I became so side-tracked with the validity of the longer ending of Mark 16.  In the older Manuscripts such as Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus Mark end with vs. 9.  Many modern scholars agree that the longer ending that represents the majority of Greek manuscripts is actually spurious.  I guess I’m one of the nuts that doesn’t by this!  So I began reading a book that is basically a condensed  version of John W. Burgon’s work refuting the shorter version.  The book is entitled “Counterfeit Or Genuine”  edited by David Otis Fuller, D.D.  So far I have enjoyed reading the work.  It doesn’t seem too excessive in its assertions for the infallibility of the King James Version which plagues the pages of many polemics defending the Majority Text or more specifically the Received Text.  So I’m off on a rabbit trail…………………

    Friday’s Concert

    We really enjoyed seeing Toby Mac in concert Friday night.  We especially like Jamie Grace!  Her lyrics and style are very likeable.  I’ve provided a link to her latest song for ya.  Enjoy. :)

    By drews2centsforyou Posted in Music

    Mom, Mommy……………

    The other day Christiana was saying, “Mom……….Mom…………Mommy….Mommy!”  This really irritates me because as you can imagine our family is very intense and we all suffer ADHD and sometimes you may just get blocked out when things require a lot of concentration.  However, Christiana’s Mom, ……..Mom…………Mommy!, repeated over and over and over again gets my attention.  I usually say rather sharply, “Christi stop doing that!”  And as usual I did so again and then I heard Abby whisper to Christi, “just call her ‘goofy’ instead”…………………………………………

    By drews2centsforyou Posted in Family