One day I was sitting around chilling and talking to a couple of Mormon Elders. I believe it was our second meeting and one of the Elders asked me if I had read the Book of Mormon. I said, ” yes I have”. To which he asked, “Did you pray to heavenly father and ask him if it was true?” I replied, “yes I have”. He then became visibly excited and asked exuberantly, “and what did he say?!” He said it was all a lie! I replied. He fell back into his chair and stared in dis-belief and then looked at his fellow Elder for his reaction. I then chimed in and told them that this is not a good reason to reject Mormonism though. I then told them that there must be a more objective way for determining truth. For instance, comparing the teachings and writings of the LDS church with the teachings of the Bible and see if they will stand the test. In fact, it was Mormon Orsan Pratt in the early years of the Mormon Churches formation, that suggested such an objective test. Praying to heavenly father and asking him if the Mormon religion is true and then receiving the ‘burning in the bosom’ as the sign that it is true is spiritual suicide. We MUST be people of evidence. Was Joseph Smith a prophet of God? That is a good place to start. Look for more of my Mormon entries to find out if he is a true prophet. Until then the video below will give you a basic overview of some of the peculiarities of Mormon theology. Enjoy!
Category Archives: Mormonism
Section 132 Doctrines and Covenants (Mormonism)
Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherin I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines_ (verse 1 )
For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory. ( verse 4 )
And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my glory; and he that receiveth a fulness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God. ( verse 6 )
It is truly sad to see the total non-sense from cover to cover in the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price. Above is evidence of Joseph’s desire to get heaven’s approval of his already polygamist tendencies. It can easily be demonstrated that he was already marching towards polygamy BEFORE he supposedly received this revelation. Jesus made it clear in Matthew 19 that marriage is between ONE man and ONE woman. I believe as the western church bows to the culture and compromises Jesus’ teaching on marriage we may just see the LDS Mormon church to once again have another revelation and again call for polygamy. After all, if homosexuality is legalized, why not polygamy?
Friday thoughts
I had a busy day today and am thankful that it is over! We just returned from fellowshipping with our new friends Danny and Susan Obert. My children had a fantastic time playing with their kids. It is encouraging to meet other Christian couples that view children as a blessing and the number one ministry for them. They are a great encouragement to us and we’ve only know them for a short time.
Tomorrow Caleb and I hope to go drag racing in Cottonwood, Alabama with our mustang. I hope to get some videos to post and if they are an outlaw track ( meaning not strict ) then Caleb should be able to ride along during one of my sprints down the track and get an inside shot.
Also I’ve been thinking about the entire idea of how we determine truth. I talk a bit about this in my booger blog ( see article under debate section ) and I believe that we should be evidential. Specifically, we should use our reasoning faculties that God has given us and look to His word and determine, Where does the evidence point? This should be true of any topic, discussion, etc. There are some though that do not believe in weighing the evidence. For instance, Mormon elders will sincerely ask me if I have read the book of Mormon and prayed to ‘heavenly father’ if it is true and if I have received a burning in my bosom that it was. Usually I say, ” yes I’ve read it and God told me that is completely false!” Usually they are quiet shocked but I tell them that that is not why I reject the book of Mormon as truth because this is an unhealthy approach for determining truth. Instead we can be objective and compare its teachings with the Bible. After all, the revelation of the Old and New Testaments came first. Right? Anyway, you see the point, viz. we must be open and objective and only rely on the text of the Bible to bring us into truth. Of course His Holy Spirit helps us along the way.
“Come now, and let us reason together,” says the LORD……………………Isaiah 1;18
Conversation With Mormon Elders (a composite story)
Below is a reprint from a fellow blogger feel free to answer in our comment section………….
When I heard the knock at the door it startled me. I wasn’t expecting anyone. I gingerly drew back a corner of the front curtain only to spy two Mormon elders. “Oh boy!” I thought to myself. Grabbing my LDS file I opened the door a crack and said,”Hello?” as more of a question than a greeting. The blond-haired teenagers grinned and launched into their obviously well-rehearsed introduction. Cutting the eager evangelist off, I declared what I thought would be the end of my unexpected encounter. “I don’t believe in your religion,” I began bravely, “You’re Mormons, and my Bible warns not to add to or take from God’s Word. Your book of Mormon is a clear violation of that!” Instead of retreating, my wide-eyed visitor said, “May I ask you a question?” With not a little hesitation I squeaked out a pathetic: “Sure.” The ‘elder’ seized his opening, “In Deuteronomy 12:32 it says: ‘Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.’ ” He continued, “If the book of Deuteronomy says don’t add to, is the book of Joshua a violation of this?” “Ah…well…ah…” .Regaining my footing I said: “The last verse in the Bible says ‘do not add to or take from. Do you believe that?” “Yes!” they simultaneously replied. “So how do you interpret it?” I asked, knowing I had them now. “This verse,” he began in a calm tone, “simply refers to the book of Revelation.” Now the door was wide-open and I felt acutely aware my porch debate was taking me much further down this road than I had intended. OK…I reasoned to myself; don’t freak out. I briefly imagined quickly ordering my attack cat to ‘sic’em’. Instead I said, “Let’s read that verse together.” Revelation 22:18-19 “For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: (at this point I caught the ‘elders’ giving each other high-fives with their eye-brows) If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” “This book” I see that. The elders grinned widely. “Let me get this straight, you Mormons believe this verse only refers to this specific book, right?” They agreed. “And you believe that if anyone added to this book, God would add to him the plagues that are written in this book?” Again, agreement. I asked again, “Anyone?” “Yes,” they agreed, “anyone.” Then I have a question for you. Eagerly they waited. “In the LDS edition of the King James Version, there are these footnotes in Revelation. JST footnotes. This stands for Joseph Smith Translation. When Joseph Smith was alive he said he was inspired to add to Revelation. For example, in the King James Version of Revelation 5:6 we read that the Lamb has ‘seven horns and seven eyes…’ but Joseph Smith added instead that the Lamb had ‘twelve horns and twelve eyes.’ He added words, verses, even whole paragraphs to Revelation! If you believe that anyone who adds to Revelation will have the plagues added to him, is your own prophet plagued?” Do you wonder what they said? They said, ” He’s a prophet, so he’s allowed to do it.” With completely serious faces they fully expected me to accept this answer. What would you have said next?
Mormonism And Its Historical Hatred for the Negro
Over at my facebook site I have been discussing Mormonism. Today I had a suspect skin cancer removed and thought “the curse of the white man”. Then I remembered that there are some that have truly believed that some people groups are cursed because of some sin. Mormons have historically held that the negro is cursed of God. Consider some of the following;
“Negroes in this life are denied the priesthood: under No circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. The gospel message of salvation IS NOT carried affirmatively to them…”Negoes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned…”(Mormon Doctrine, 1958, p.477)
“Those who were less valiant in pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us negroes. Such spirits are sent to earth through the lineage of Cain, the mark put upon him for his rebellion against God and his murder of Abel being a Black skin.” (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 476-477)
“Cain slew his brother…. and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin….”(Moromonism and the Negro, Part2 page 14; taken from Journal of Discourses, Vol.7, pages 290-291)
Brigham Young states that marriage to an African should be punished by death on the spot. Here is his exact quote,
“Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.” (Journal of Discourses, V. 10, p. 110.)
Now consider the New Testaments opinion;
” And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,” (Acts 17;26 )
” There is neither Jew nor Greek, neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” ( Galatians 3;28 )
Mormons and the Bible
Do Mormons accept the Christian Old and New Testaments as God’s words? If you were to search LDS writings to find the answer you may be a bit surprised as to what you find. For instance, Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt said,
“What shall we say then, concerning the Bible’s being a sufficienct guide? Can we rely upon it in its present known corrupted state, as being a faithful record of God’s word? We all know that but a few of the inspired writings have descended to our times, which few quote the names of some twenty other books which are lost………..and who, in his right mind, could, for one moment, suppose the Bible in its present form to be a perfect guide?…….There can be no certainty as to the contents of the inspired writings until God shall inspire someone to rewrite all those books over again….(Orson Pratt, “The Bible Alone an Insufficient Guide, ” pp. 44-47)
As one can readily see, Orson sounds much like a modern skeptic but when we read Brigham Young”s opinion we find a softer tone altogether. he says,
……..why I make this particular remark is because this congregation heard brother O. Pratt scan the validity of the Bible, and I thought by the time he got through, that you would scarcely think a bible worth picking up and carrying home, should you find one in the streets……The Bible is good enough as it is, to point out the way we should walk, and to teach us how to come to the Lord of whom we can receive for ourselves. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 10/8/1855, 3:116)
Currently, most all Mormons will declare to you,
“We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly.” (Aticle 8, p.236, The Articles Of Faith, James E. Talmage, 1975)
So do Mormons accept the Bible? It has been my experience that they do not. Almost always when I have been discussing the topic with a Mormon Missionary (so called Elders ) they will appeal to Article 8 after I have refuted a particular point of their Doctrine with the Bible as my source. As the discussion continues they claim, ” the Bible has been tranlsated so many times, from one language to another to another, how can you be sure what you are reading is accurate?” To put it in perspective it would look like:
Hebrew translated into Greek into Latin into French into German into Spanish, and Finally into English!
They continue to explain to me that it is impossible for the original authors words to be contained in what we have today. They sometimes add, “It is now impossible to even check for ourselves”. Now if any of you reading have done any amount of research you will see how vacuous this assertion is but to most Chrisitians shame they too are really in the fog as to knowing how we got our English Bible and if it is correct. These accusations against God’s word can be refuted with just a little bit of knowledge. For instance, did you know that the Old Testament was written in Hebrew? Yeah, that’s correct, Hebrew and then translated into many different languages. Also, the New Testament was written in Greek and it too has been translated into many different languages. So what language was the our English translated from? You guessed it, from the original Hebrew and Greek language. Just this tidbit of information can refute the idea of a Hebrew, Greek, French, German, Spanish, and finally into English hypothesis of transmission. What about the assertion the “it’s impossible for us to check the accuracy of our English Bible”? That too can easily be refuted with some basic information. Consider for a moment that there exist only about 10 copies of Ceaser that was supposedly written around 100-44 B.C. and the earliest copy that we have today is from about 900 A.D. When it comes to Homer’s Illiad we have a whopping 643 copies written about 900 B.C. with the earliest copy from about 400 B.C. Impressive isn’t it? Let’s compare those facts with the New Testaments. It was written about 40-100 A.D. and the earliest copy that most scholars agree to is about 125 A.D. and now swallow the fact that we have nearly 24,000 copies to this day!! Yes, thats right 24,000 copies. Older copies can be compared to newer copies. When doing so, we can walk away knowing that the Greek Text’s that our English Bibles were translated from are faithful witnesses of the original autographs themselves.
In conclusion, with a little study, the Christian can demonstrate the accuracy of the English Bible to our Mormon friends. At the same time it will build your faith as you see the hand of God in the preservation of His words to mankind. For further reading see;
F.F. Bruce, “The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?”
James White, “Letters To A Mormon Elder”
“But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear….” 1 Peter 3;15
Joseph Smith’s Failed Prophecies
Brigham Young said: Take up the bible, compare the religion of the Latter-Day Saints with it and see if it will stand the test.” ( Journal of Discourses 16:46: 1873 )
Orson Pratt said: ” If we cannot convince you by reason nor by the word of God, that your religion is wrong, we will not persecute you–we ask the same generously–convince us of our errors of doctrine….if we hane any, by logical arguments, or by the word of God and we will be ever grateful for the information, and you will ever have the pleasing reflections that you have been the instruments in the hands of God of redeeming your fellow beings.”
Much could be said of the many strange and unique doctrines of the Moromon Church but for now it would be best to examine a few of Joseph Smith’s failed prophecies. As with any religion, Mormonism either stands or falls with it’s prophet. Consider the following;
“Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem. “Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and other with whom the Lord was well pleased. “Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation. “For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house…..”Therefore, as I said concerning the sons of Moses-for the sons of Moses and also the sons of Aaron shall offer an acceptable offering and sacrifice in the house of the Lord, which house shall be built unto the Lord in this generation, upon the consecrated spot as I have appointed-” (Doctrine and Covenants, Sec 84:2-5 and 31
This supposed revelation was given to Smith around 1832 but before they could see the prophecy fulfilled they were driven away from the area of Independence (Jackson County) Missouri. It should be noted that many Mormons will argue ” Whats a generation?” We need only look to the writings of that generation to understand what they believed the generation was. For instance, Orson Pratt stated,
” And when the Saints were driven out from Jackson County, almost all in the Church expected that they would speedily be restored; and a person was considered almost an apostate that would say, they would not come back in five years, or ten at the furthest…….( Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p.17)
Also the words of Brigham Young reflects his understanding of “a generation” when he said,
“…..as the Lord lives we will build up Jackson county in THIS generation…….” ( Times and Seasons, Vol. 6, p.956)
Finally, hear the words of Heber C. Kimball, given between 1857-1861;
“They are holy places, and they will be held sacred even as Jackson County;… Joseph the Prophet dedicated that land,….I shall yet see the day that I will go back there, with brother Brigham and with thousands and millions of others,…” ( Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.190)
To this day, as far as I know the LDS Church does not own the property described above. It has been over 150 years now, thus Joseph Smith is a false prophet.
Another false prophecy given by Smith is a prophecy concerning the coming of the Lord himself. Consider the following;
Smith then stated….it was the will of God that those who went to Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, or the coming of the Lord, which was nigh even fifty-six years should wind up the scene.” (History of the Church, Vol. 2, page 182)
In light of Smiths false prophecies we are reminded of John words;
“Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world” ( J John 4;1)
Pray for your Mormon friends or family, that they would come to know the True Shepherd, Jesus Christ, as he is described and defined by the Christian Old and New Testaments. Our testing of the book of Mormon, as Brigham Young challenged us to do, reveals that it does not pass the test.
“To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” ( Isaiah 8;20)
