Gods own Son – God;   or son because the son of Mans flesh was in relationship with the Father Jesus ? What does the Bible say ?

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    Drew Ayerswhat exactly are you asking?

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    Duncan MacgregorJohn 9:35 – 38. seals it for me…..Gods Own Son – God. Flesh doesnot recieve Worship and be declared YHVH/Adonai…..Nor would the blindman healed and thrown out of the Synagogue, respond to Jesus Question…” Do you believe in the Son Of God” ? and then ask “who is….He Lord ?……..if all it meant,  was a man in relationship with God…….for this Blindman had been in relationship with God…a son of Abraham – a son therefore of God………

    4 hours ago ·
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    Duncan MacgregorSorry Drew….Oneness believe that the Term Son of God..for Jesus means nothing more than a man in relationship with God…only. others believe the term Son of God – means literraly Gods own Son.

    4 hours ago ·
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    Duncan MacgregorWhat does the Bible say ?

    4 hours ago ·
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    Drew AyersWell I’m a well informed Trinitarian and I believe scripture indicates that Jesus if fully human and fully God simultaneously.  John 1;1 indicates that the ‘word’ (which is the son) is deity.  Oneness would also believe that Jesus is God but they mean that he is God the Father manifested in the flesh.  Therefore they dismiss the notion that the Son of God is diety without equivocation thus son of God are two people…the Father=deity and the son of man=human nature.  What settles this is the idea of actual pre-existence of the son before Bethlehem.  Hebrew 1 is a good place to start….what do you think?

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    Drew Ayersthe question is, “was the ‘Word’ personal or impersonal in John1;1

    3 hours ago ·
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    Duncan Macgregor I think what I think is on Record daily here drew..LOL…. hebrew 1:10….has the Father declare over His Son…: “You YHVH laid the foundations of the earth, The heavens are the work of Your …”hands”..[not logos]. The “Word” is a Title defining the tenoire of His ministry – the Prophet moses spoke of…The revelator – The wisdom of God – the proclaimer of Gods truth revealed – the Rabbi – the Master – the Teacher – Gods Spokes person….etc.. A Title….not literal thought in Gods head before Mat 1:25…referenced again in Rev 19:13 amongst many Titles the Son of God has…. They want “The word” to be litteral…..but not Jesus actually – literally being a “Lamb”…………apparently – though the greek does specify litterally a four legged creature with a fluffy tail…

    3 hours ago ·
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    Quartus HendersonThe term Son of God generally speaks of the divine nature of Jesus. He is the “Son of God ” because he according to Luke 1:35 was conceived by the Spirit of God. However, the term sees both his humanity and deity because God was manifest himself in flesh.

    3 hours ago via mobile ·
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    Drew AyersDid this “Son of God” pre-exist His birth in Bethlehem?

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    Quartus HendersonThe “Son” was begotten in time.

    3 hours ago via mobile ·
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    Drew Ayersso the ‘son’ mentioned in Hebrews 1 really wan’t the ‘one’ that laid the foundations of the earth?

    3 hours ago ·
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    Non-Trinitarian Oneness PentecostalGod is not a Son, that concept is not Biblical.

    3 hours ago via mobile ·
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    Duncan MacgregorExcept the Father declares…over His Son – Heb 1:10…..The Holy Spirit affirms this truth in Col 1:15-19……John the Baptist [John 1:30] who was older than Jesus testifies that Jesus was “Before him”…….and Jesus Himself in John 8:58 declares as the Father declared over Him, that He was/is a person ..YHVH. a Living being – prior to Mat 1:25. Now the Testimony of any one of the Godhead would be reliable and Truth…but the testimony of All – The Father – the Son and The Holy spirit – leaves no doubt at all on the matter. Unless you have a doctrine elevated Higher than Gods Etrenal word….that is, of course.

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    Christian Apologetics ‎Drew Ayers, Would you want to discuss this subject. Just the two of us at the one on one discussion, This is Ray Haruzi

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    Drew Ayerswhen, cuz the discussion could become lengthy and I stinketh and need a bath…:)

    3 hours ago ·
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    Quartus HendersonAre you now asking the same question a different way? Hebrews show that the Son was begotten and brought into creation as I stated earlier Luke 1:35

    3 hours ago ·
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    Duncan MacgregorSon of Man was begotten in time – but Son of God was not. The Son of God was “Sent” of his father – coming in the likeness of sinful flesh…Rom 8;3…..Gods Own Son…Rom 8:32.

    3 hours ago ·
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    Christian ApologeticsNo rush, we can start at anytime

    3 hours ago ·
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    Christian ApologeticsThere are guide lines

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    Drew Ayersoh boy… guidelines?  does this mean we can’t call each other names?

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    Christian ApologeticsLOl. Im affraid so!

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    Christian ApologeticsI think it will be beneficial this way..

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    Drew Ayersit very well could…I’ll check back later and see how this topic is going and let you know …

    3 hours ago ·
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    Christian Apologeticssure, I need to review the  guide lines and pass it to you. bassically just a written debate format. How many words for required for each responds and how long will it takes to post. Its not a one sitting type debate but a n individual can take up to two days to really get their response prepared before posting…

    3 hours ago ·
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    Duncan Macgregor‎@Qaurtas… Col 1:16…./”For by …”Him”..ALL things were created….” He was a “Him” before Time was concieved - before their was a Beginning – for He Created both “Time” and “beginning” with The father and the Holy Spirit. What do we call the realm where Time does not exist in the physical Realm ?…………The Eternal Ralm - ‘Outside of Time’..not ‘subject to Time’…not “governed by Time’…..Past – Present -Future – knowing no dominion or law of Time. What do we call this other realm – outside of Time ?……..The eternal Realm.

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    Drew AyersI’m really beginning to like the way you talk Duncan.

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    Quartus Henderson‎@Duncan as I stated earlier the term Son of God speaks of both humanity and Deity. When dealing with Jesus one must reconcile when the scriptures speak of his humanity/flesh or deity/spirit. He did exist before time as spirit. However the “Son” was born of a virgin in time. Yes Jesus pre-existed because the deity of Jesus is the Father Himself.

    3 hours ago ·
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    Steve CurtisDuncan, you confuse too many people with your much talking. Just put it in plain terms so people can understand.Here it is , God has always been one God , he never needed any help.Then , he spoke to Maqry and God Fathered a Son and lived in the body showing the world who he was.

    3 hours ago ·
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    Duncan MacgregorThe  english Translation is always in the singular…”God”. Yet NOT in Hebrew where the Term is not Singular – but The plurality and Unity of Elohim…….Of One -  plurality and Unity is One.”echad” Reference for clarification…Genesis 2:24….”Two shall become One flesh…… a plurality of Unity creating “One”. One God numericaly requires not the plural  verb for One “echad” that is associated with “El”….[God].. but reqiures the other Verb the Hebrews use for “One” – “yachid”[numerically One - mathmatically One - where plurality and unity cannot exist.......WHICH IS NEVER USED...in association with God.......... You have no yachid as you claim  Steve.....Look at the Shema Deut 6:4 - Three words of God are in the Plurality of Unity - followed NOT by "Yachid" [absoloute One]…but with the verb “Echad”. However The English will always translate Lord or God in its singular…which doesnot exist in the Hebrew.

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    Duncan MacgregorI cannot find any Scvripture that declares The fathers Name is Jesus Qaurtas. Jesus never taught that – proclaimed that – prayed that – nor did the early Church ever reference what you claim. It doesnot exist in Scripture…that the Fathers Name is Jesus. There was a “Him” a living being – before creation with God – before the Beginning – for “He”…was in the Beginning – and by Him all things were created in heaven and earth – Col 1:16…and Through “Him”…the universe was created – Heb 1:3….and this Co creator was a “Son” and an ” Heir” to His Father. Now that is Scripture.

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    Drew AyersIf the Son did not exist before Bethlehem then who was the Father speaking to in Hebrews 1 where it is declared that the ‘Son’ laid the foundation of the earth?…and who called him God according to Hebrews 1?

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    Quartus Henderson‎@ Duncan I never mentioned this however I will address it. John 17:26 Jesus said he “have declared unto them thy name” The ONLY name Jesus declared was Jesus and Jesus was the only name the disciples/apostles declared!

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    Drew Ayersso what about Hebrew 1 and Colossians 1 that Duncan has brought up?  I would be most interested to learn how you understand these verses…

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    Quartus Henderson‎@Drew I already addressed it in a previous post.

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    Drew Ayers‎@ Quartus you say, ” Hebrews show that the Son was begotten and brought into creation “  if the ‘son was ‘begotten’ and brought (made) into creation then when did this exactly happen?

    2 hours ago ·
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    Quartus HendersonWhen the fulness of time was come Gal 4:4

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    Duncan MacgregorNom – you have been trained for doctrinal reasons to interpet that loose misinterpeted thread…Qaurtas….The fathers name is YHVH..Ex 3…that the Son shares with His Father……list all YHWY…preceeding the Likes of Shalom – jireh - nissi - Tsideneku - and you will see the full ministry of Jesus revealed….”Who revealed His Fathers Name”… It is YHVH…list them all – you see Jesus in action in the Gospel. What it is NOT……..is declaring that the Sons Name Jesus is The Fathers name. The Son was/is YHVH…everytime you say the “Lord” Jesus Christ…you affirm that the Son was a YHVH – First – Became a Man – jsecond -Jesus - and as required for the Messiah [Christ] – was Both fully Man and God.God/Man. Qautas – who is The Lord Jesus Christs… Head ?..Ref 1 Cor 11:3

    2 hours ago ·
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    Christian ApologeticsDrew and Duncan, let me ask you both a question> Read Heb 1:5 and tell me if this is not a recitation of the prophetic passage from  the OT. Heb 1:5  For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

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    Drew Ayerswhen exactly was that ‘fulness of time’?  When did this ‘son’ begin to exist?

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    Drew Ayersyes Ray this was prophetically spoken and was further explained here in Hebrews 1.

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    Duncan MacgregorHave you forgotten Jesus declaration in John 17:5 – Qaurtas ? …….Worth the read.

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    Drew AyersDuncan I wonder if we could stay on Hebrews 1 with him for now?  I’d like to know what he thinks about the origination of the Son?

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    Christian ApologeticsDosent these phrases, ” I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?” and “I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?” written in future anticipation?

    2 hours ago ·
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    Drew Ayersit could be but I would like to look at the specifics of what was said to the ‘son’ and what is attributed the the ‘son’…those phrases are very interesting indeed, while we are waiting were they not spoken to someone in the Old Testament?  Bible Trivia here, very interesting to who.

    2 hours ago ·
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    Christian ApologeticsIf the son existed before the incarnation , why oes the passage speaks of the son in future tense as if he didnt existed prior to verse 6?

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    Drew Ayersfirst I’m wanting to determine “IF” the ‘Son’ existed before the incarnation according to Hebrew 1: 8-13

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    Quartus HendersonWhen dealing with Jesus one must reconcile when the scriptures speak of his humanity/flesh or deity/spirit. The head of Christ/humanity/flesh is God. @ Drew the fulness of time was in Luke 1:35;Matt 1:21

    2 hours ago ·
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    Christian ApologeticsWould it make sense to derive understanding from passages before verse 8?

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    Drew AyersOkay, so you would agree that the “son’ did NOT lay the foundations of the earth but instead it was the ‘Father’?

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    Drew AyersYes it very well could but if your presupposition is that the son did NOT exist before the incarnation then you will interpret those verse in light of that pressuposition and if you hold to my presuposition then you will interpret those passages accordingly…:)

    2 hours ago ·
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    Quartus HendersonDrew and Duncan you both are asking the same question which I already answered. The “Son” is both human and divine. If we say the Son pre-existed then it is understood that the deity of Jesus pre-existed which was/is the Spirit of God

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    Drew Ayerswe have a case here Quartus where the divine is speaking to the human…would you agree that is the case here in Hebrews1 ?

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    Quartus Hendersonno

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    Drew Ayerswho speaks to the son then in verse 8?  Is this ‘deity’ speaking to the son or is this the son speaking to the son?

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    Christian ApologeticsSciptures  indicate that there was only one who created the world. In “Rev 4: 1 You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being. Lamb is not given a recognition for being the creator but a redeemer only. Rev 5:9 Scripture seems to indicate that God alone create all things.

    2 hours ago ·
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    Drew Ayersyes God alone.  There is only one God…

    2 hours ago ·
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    Christian ApologeticsIf the son is the Creator then why he is excluded from the recognition in Rev 4:1.?

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    Christian ApologeticsOk, gotta go. Church starting in few minutes..

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    Drew Ayersarguments from silence proves nothing…but right now I’m in Hebrews 1

    2 hours ago ·
  • Drew AyersOkay Ray, nice talking to ya, did you solve the Bible Trivia?

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    Christian ApologeticsI know the subject is in Hebrew, what Im saying is this, you are suggestin that son existed prior to the incarnation in Hebre 1:8-13 but in Hebrew 1:5-6, the writer speaks of the son only in future tense. Do you think the writer mis quoted the passages in verse 5 or do we force an assumption of pre-existent divine being along side another God?

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    Drew AyersRay see 1 Chronicles 17;13…trivia answer

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    Christian ApologeticsI will later, service starts in few minutes…

    2 hours ago ·
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    Drew AyersI just want to know from the other brother, in His opinion, who is speaking to whom in verse 8?

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    Drew Ayersokay, don’t be late on our account.:)

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    Duncan MacgregorYour speaking in the physical Realm – not the “Eternal Realm” as you should.. “Today if you hear his voice – do not harden your hearts as your forefathers did….” was not a Literal 24 hrs…..meant. The blood of Jesus was shed on a single day 14 day of the third month – 3 B.C. – but through the Eternal Spirit – before the foundations of the earth – The Lamb was slain and His blood knows no Time in regard of its cleansing…… The Eternal realm, though referencing for our sakes physical measurements to relate to….is neither bound by them nor governed – nor subject to Time past - Present – Future – ……but will reference what we can understand by using physical measurements to define both meaning and immediantcy. . With regard the Scripture you Qoute…..it is both of Eternal realm—before Time and Physical realm – When the Pre-existant Son of God – Sent of His Father – was birthed through Mary – to become a Son of Man.

    2 hours ago ·
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    Quartus HendersonDrew The Father was speaking of things to come=The incarnation

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    Duncan MacgregorOver -tired – God bless you all…;0

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    Christian Apologetics Ok, one more then I will run. Again, this scriptures Drew Ayers, have a sense of future anticipation of the son. They dont give any glue or hints of the son existed then.  They speak of the Son in future tense. 1Ch 17:11  And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 1Ch 17:12  He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 1Ch 17:13  I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 1Ch 17:14  But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.

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    Drew Ayersand who did he speak these things to?

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    William Vincent ‎Duncan Macgregor- I find it interesting that you seem to take issue with Oneness indicating the Jesus was the Father, yet you here insinuate that God’s on Son was in fact God. The statement itself seems illogical.

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    Drew Ayersit seems that the Father says so William…verse9 Hebrews 1.  What am I missing?

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    Quartus Henderson‎@ Drew vs 1 of Hebrews 1 answers that

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    Drew Ayerssorry that should have been  verse8

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    Drew Ayersso is Deity speaking to the human in verse 8-13?

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    Duncan MacgregorThe “Head “of the Lord Jesus Christ, Lord either meaning Adonai God – or YHVY – God…the Head of Christ is indeed an other – William… 1 Cor 11:3 – could not put it more simply.

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    Drew Ayers‎@ Quartus thats good, through whom He made the worlds…

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    Drew Ayerssounds like verse 10 ….

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    Drew Ayersso the deity says to the human, You LORD laid the foundations of the earth?

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    Duncan MacgregorJohn 17:5…Qaurtas ?

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    Drew Ayersdo I understand you correctly?

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    Quartus Henderson‎@ Drew are you assuming that this is a conversation taking place

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    William Vincent ‎Duncan Macgregor- I am not sure 1 Cor 11:3 works very well for you point. Not unless you are willing to include man and woman into the Deity. For the same thing said of God and Christ is said of Christ and man as well as man and woman. This does not answer the illogical statement that God is his own Son.

    about an hour ago ·
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    Drew AyersI’m not assuming anything, just understanding that someone referred to as “He” we are told “says” and this “saying” takes place while bringing the firstborn into the world…see verse 6

    about an hour ago ·
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    Drew Ayersall that follows is what was said by the “He” to the “Son”…

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    William Vincent ‎Drew Ayers- If you will read from the beginning verses, it plainly tells you that the Son inherited the Fathers person and character. He is called God because he is one with the Father, this is exactly how Jesus explains the situation in John 10.

    about an hour ago ·
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    Drew Ayersyep, He is the Grk. Character of God verse 3′s “express”.  The express image of His being….this has no bearing of the fact that someone called “He” says to the “Son”.  Who is the “He”?  Deity?  Who is the “Son” referred to here?  Humanity?

    about an hour ago ·
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    Drew Ayerswhen does this conversation take place?

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    Quartus Henderson‎@ Drew in vs 6 when he (God/Spirit) bringeth in the first begotten (Son)into the world. As I stated before Luke 1:35

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    Drew Ayersso the Spirit spoke to the infant Son..”Your throne, O God, is forever and ever:……Therefore God, Your God has anointed you…….You LORD in the beginning laid the foundations of the earth…………?  Do I understand you correctly?

    about an hour ago ·
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    Quartus HendersonAgain you are assuming this is a conversation which I never said.

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    Drew Ayerssomeone speaks do they not?

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    Quartus HendersonVs 1 answers that God spoke unto the fathers by the prophets. This is a prophecy

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    Drew Ayersverse 6 says that “He” says….

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    Drew AyersYou’ve already said that this was said at Luke 1;35

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    Drew AyersDid “He” the deity really “say”?

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    Quartus HendersonMany verses say “and God said” whats the difference

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    Quartus HendersonNo you asked about the fulness of time when I responded in reference to Luke 1:35

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    Drew Ayersthe text here in Hebrew 1 verse 6 says that a “He” says…..

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    Drew AyersOkay, then “when” did the “He” say this to the “Son”?  verse 6 says, when “He” brings the firstborn into the world.  Do you agree?

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    Quartus HendersonI dont understand your question

    about an hour ago ·
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    Drew AyersWhen did the “He” say to the “Son”?  specifically when did the “He” mentioned in verse six “say”?

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    Quartus Henderson‎@Drew again this is a prophecy vs 1 answers the God spoke to the fathers by the prophets. This is a quote from Psalms 89:27

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    Quartus HendersonThis is NOT a conversation between “persons”

    about an hour ago ·
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    Drew Ayersyet verse six says that the “He” says this was said “when He again brings the firstborn into the world.  Do you not agree with verse six?  It plainly without adumbration says that this was said when bringing the firstborn into the world.

    about an hour ago ·
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    Drew Ayersdid the Son exist when “He” was bringing Him into the world?

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    Drew Ayersverse 8, but to the Son, He says:

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    Drew Ayersall that follows is what was said to the Son, and this took place, or ‘was said’ while bringing the firtborn into the world.  Seems rather clear.

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    Quartus Henderson‎@Drew you asre asking the same questions which I answered already.

    about an hour ago ·
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    Drew AyersWhat is most important is what was said to the Son, the context is proving Jesus’ supremacy over that of Angels because no Angel EVER had any of the attributes as that of Jesus.  However, the specific things said to Him are amazing.  For instance, to the Son it is said that He laid the foundations of the earth.  If He didn’t exist until Bethlehem then there is no way that this is true.

    about an hour ago ·
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    Drew AyersI don’ recall you clearly answering these question.  very simple then, 1.) Who is the He in verse six?  would you agree the Father? 2.) Who is the Son mentioned in verse 8-13? would He be the human?

    about an hour ago ·
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    Drew AyersNot trying to be difficult just want to understand you here.  Please be patient with me.:)

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    Quartus HendersonI answered this above twice I believe. Jesus is both humanity/man/flesh and deity/divine/spirit. Understanding that He laid the foundations of the earth is simple when we understand that the deity of Jesus which is the spirit of God himself did the creating not the humanity of Jesus.

    about an hour ago ·
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    Drew AyersGood talking to ya Quartus.  If you wanna follow up visit me over at drews2centsforyoublog.  Or maybe we’ll meet here again.

    about an hour ago ·
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    Drew AyersSorry, you caught me walking out the door.  Very good answer.  So deity verse six says to the son…..do you not believe the Son is humanity?  Where in Oneness theology is the Son God the Son?

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    Drew AyersI thought the Son of God are two people i.e. deity=father and son=humanity

    about an hour ago ·
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    Drew Ayershave I understood David Bernard wrong?  Robert Sabin and all the great minds of Oneness theologians?

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    William VincentDrew Ayers – as to the when – it clearly says “when he brings the Son into the world” but as to saying this is a conversation, I am not sure this qualifies.

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    Drew Ayersthanks William, but verse six says that when the “when” happens the “says” happens…………

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    William VincentAs far as the “he” it is very possible that this is referring to David who wrote the psalm that is quoted.

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    Drew Ayersso you are saying that Hebrew 1 is a defense to proving that David was not an angel?  Of course you wouldn’t, the context is speaking of Jesus, the Son of God.  Is it not?

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    William VincentI think it’s obvious that’s not what I am saying. Is is also obvious that David wrote these psalms. It is a logical possibility. WHO said it, really has no bearing on WHAT was said.

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    Drew Ayersany text previously written could now be applied specifically as referring to the son of David, Jesus.  Isn’t this the context?  Jesus is preeminent.  Greater than Angels.

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    Drew Ayersyep, verse 9 identifies the ‘He’ speaking.  “He” is called God.  Only God could be called God…

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    Drew Ayersso deity is attributing creation to the Son and Paul is using this as proof that Jesus is greater than the Angels…

    58 minutes ago ·
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    William VincentAs to the “when” there is no evidence of a conversation. It is clear that the writer is quoting scriptures from the psalms. And it, again, plainly says that “when he brings the firstborn into the world.” This is the only time borne out by this text.

    58 minutes ago ·
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    Drew Ayersokay, who is the firstborn then?  and when was He brought into the world?

    57 minutes ago ·
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    William VincentYou are making many unfounded assumptions when viewing these verses. There is nothing that demands a conversation other than you insisting that it is there. This is an inspired author using passages from the Old Testament to prove that Christ is preeminent.

    53 minutes ago ·
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    Drew AyersI’m assuming nothing, only repeating the text, it says a “He” says (coversation) to the “Son”.  That we should agree upon because the text plainly says so.

    51 minutes ago ·
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    Drew Ayersand where did Quartus get off to?:)

    50 minutes ago ·
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    Drew Ayersby the way it is obvious that these Old testament passages are now being applied to the Son…

    49 minutes ago ·
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    Drew Ayerswell William Quartus it has been a pleasure getting to know ya

    45 minutes ago ·
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    Drew Ayerswork in the morning….and William if you ever come to North Florida look me up.

    45 minutes ago ·
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    Drew AyersGood night and God bless.

    44 minutes ago ·
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    William VincentAlso, Paul did not write hebrews

    42 minutes ago ·
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    Drew AyersI think he did, but that too is debatable…doesn’t really matter…still inspired…

    41 minutes ago ·
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    William VincentThe firstborn is Christ. And, he was brought into the world when he was first born

    41 minutes ago ·
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    Drew Ayersdid the “He” really “say” to the “firstborn”?

    39 minutes ago ·
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    Drew Ayersand did this infant hear what was said?

    39 minutes ago ·
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    Drew Ayersor are these texts not to be taken literally? and if not why not?

    38 minutes ago ·
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    Drew Ayersand did this infant really lay the foundations of the earth?

    37 minutes ago ·
  • 

    Drew Ayerswell gotta go, thanks for the good conversation…

    35 minutes ago ·
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